[John Kavanaugh]

What is the role of the golfer in architecture and agronomy? How is the role of the golfer different than the role of the medical, fast food, automobile, television or voting consumer.  Is it really all our fault that we get what we ask for?

[Ian Larson]

Yes. Youre the boss.

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes. Youre the boss.

I agree that at the Bandon Resort we deserve all the credit for the current pricing structure but do we deserve any kudos for the architecture and agronomy? 

[JESII]

No, you will deserve credit for the next Bandon.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is Doak really no better than the guy who decided to put another patty on a Wendy's and call it a double?  Is Jefferson no different than the guy who grills it?  I do love to "have it my way" (Burger King) but I don't see the correlation to golf A&A.  Am I not right that the golfer is further from the loop than other consumer industries.

[Mike Nuzzo]

The consumer has gotten mostly bland golf courses over the years.
I'd hate to think that is what they really wanted.
Cheers

[RJ_Daley]

When it comes to the golf consumer, what they get is media-marketing driven, just like any of the consumers of hamburger that JK cites.  It is only when you get down to the niche specialty consumer, the descerning ones that take the extra time and effort to seek out something better, that you get the existence of a product made with quality and care, and craftsmanship.  Everyone who is an enthusiastic consumer of various products has their favorite niche and/or local brand.  Such as craft-brewhouse beers, local or regional famous hamburgers, or hidden gem golf courses. 

I agree yet disagree with Nunzio to the extent that they get what they deserve when they are marketted to in a mass media way via golf advertizing for the latest and greatest high end CCFAD or ultra exclusive private club with astronomical intitiation fees and such.  But it seems to me that the marketting is anything but for "bland" golf courses.  The marketting is for elaborate, eye-candy, costly enclaves of lavish or lush environs.  That is big $$ that the marketting efforts are fishing for.  They can't market 'bland'.  They have to have calendar shot signature holes to market. 

It is only the descerning golfer, the ones that take the time to learn about play and spriit of the game and its history, not acquire the accutremonts of the lifestyle of the game, that the few in numbers niche golfer pursues.  Bandon is an aberration.  It has its lavish aspects, with great golf.  It is a trophy for the acquisition oriented crowd, yet a destination of descernability for the niche serious golfer.  But across the broad spectrum of golf; how many golf destinations or mecca's exist for the serious golfer as opposed to the multitude of 'signature' trophy - highly marketted little golf substance venues? 

We get what the mass media focused marketting picks out and defines for us as a general group of golfers, and the more descerning must seek out and in many cases find obscure facilities that meet their more refined tastes. 

 At least that is the way I see it...

[John Kavanaugh]

RJ,

I have trouble believing that any of your golf buds up in Wisconsin or Nebraska desire expensive CCFAD's.  I doubt that any want wet lush fairways.  I doubt that any want three sets of tees behind where they play.  I, in other words, do not believe the ego driven idiot golf consumers even exist.  I think they are created by the industry to justify their salaries and existence.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I, in other words, do not believe the ego driven idiot golf consumers even exist.

 

I think they are created by the industry to justify their salaries and existence.

 

[RJ_Daley]

I, in other words, do not believe the ego driven idiot golf consumers even exist.  I think they are created by the industry to justify their salaries and existence.

But, John, aren't those two last sentences contradictory?  I believe they do exist as idiot consumers, and they are created by an industry to justify - not just salaries and their existence, but their commerce and all the spin-off of their creation.  More machinery, more chems, more irrigation, more workers, more is more...

As for my buddies, I don't think you are correct there either.  They generally won't play the costly venues that are marketted to them in every media they read or watch, because they are 'frugal'.  But, it doesn't mean they don't pine to play those costly venues, because they have been conditioned to believe that those are the epitome of golf.  And, so they save up and play the high end CCFADs or expensive guest fees at the exclusive privates that they are invited to, as a once in a year sort of mentality.  But, they don't see the guts of the architecture when they get there, they ooh and ahh at the flowers, and waterfalls, and lush conditions, just like they were conditioned to do.  It is a very rare thing to have them actually discuss the merits of a golf hole design as a strategy or architecture issue.  I suspect most of your buddies are the same... but I could be wrong.  

[Jon Wiggett]

Most people want something because they are told that is what they want!!! We are all sheep

[John Kavanaugh]

But, they don't see the guts of the architecture when they get there, they ooh and ahh at the flowers, and waterfalls, and lush conditions, just like they were conditioned to do.  It is a very rare thing to have them actually discuss the merits of a golf hole design as a strategy or architecture issue.  I suspect most of your buddies are the same... but I could be wrong.  

For lack of better word, your friends sound gay.  My buddies do love fast smooth greens but sure as hell do not care for flowers, waterfalls or wet fairways.  We never play without money on the line so they are very concerned about the strategic merits of every hole they play.  They are hard core fans of architecture if architecture is the playing field of the game and not some touchy feely abstract notion discussed over tee and finger sandwiches.  I also easily get bored with people who I believe are not as clever, smart or observant as me so would never call someone a friend who I consider too stupid to get something so basic as the architecture of a golf hole.

[Ian Larson]

Yes, members are probably the ones furthest out of the loop. But should they be? Hell no. All parties should be accountable in the structure of a golf club.

The membership should have good people elected to the committees.

The committees should elect good Presidents and GMs.

Presidents, GMs and committees should hire good Superintendents.

And Presidents, GMs, committees and superintendents should hire appropriate architects need be.

This is why I find the membership as the root of all success at a club. All of the parties within the management of the club need to communicate well. If there are problems with one of the parties then the people who hired or elected them should be held accountable.

Having the responsibilty of the clubs success on the membership doesnt come without reward either. The can dictate golf course and club standards. Thats the beauty of being a member. Your money is your voice.

The problem lies within a failure to communicate and educate. Period.

[Guy Nicholson]

For lack of better word, your friends sound gay. 

I'm surprised you haven't observed that there are, in fact, a great number of better words.

[John Kavanaugh]

For lack of better word, your friends sound gay. 

I'm surprised you haven't observed that there are, in fact, a great number of better words.

Sorry Guy...Gay is no longer a derogatory word towards homosexuals...just ask one.

[RJ_Daley]

I also easily get bored with people who I believe are not as clever, smart or observant as me so would never call someone a friend who I consider too stupid to get something so basic as the architecture of a golf hole.

wondering... just about how many friends do you have, that you know of...

[Guy Nicholson]

For lack of better word, your friends sound gay. 

I'm surprised you haven't observed that there are, in fact, a great number of better words.

Sorry Guy...Gay is no longer a derogatory word towards homosexuals...just ask one.

You're not using it for someone who's gay. You're using it as a synonym for someone you're disparaging.

[Matt_Cohn]

Getting back to golf...




It's just like a whole bunch of other things in life. What we think we want is not actually what we want.

[Ken Moum]

What we think we want is not actually what we want.

'tis true.

Just about every golfer I know wants to shoot lower scores. They hate losing golf balls. They can't stand hacking it out of deep rough.

They bitch endlessly about inconcistent bunkers, greens that won't hold a crummy shot, contouring that causes "funny" bounces, centerline hazards and blindness.

Then they turn around and play from the tips on courses with lots of OB, water and deep rough--and shoot a million.

Golfers are nuts.... including me.  I do like short rough, wide fairways, undulating fairways and contoured greens, 'cause I can shoot a reasonable score while feeling challenged by the course.

Ken

[John Kavanaugh]

What we think we want is not actually what we want.

'tis true.

Just about every golfer I know wants to shoot lower scores. They hate losing golf balls. They can't stand hacking it out of deep rough.

They bitch endlessly about inconcistent bunkers, greens that won't hold a crummy shot, contouring that causes "funny" bounces, centerline hazards and blindness.

Then they turn around and play from the tips on courses with lots of OB, water and deep rough--and shoot a million.

Golfers are nuts.... including me.  I do like short rough, wide fairways, undulating fairways and contoured greens, 'cause I can shoot a reasonable score while feeling challenged by the course.

Ken

If golfers do truly suffer from an architectural Madonna/Whore syndrome I can only say, thank God focus groups didn't have a hand in designing women.  This takes me back to the question of how can golfers be responsible for the problems in golf?  If we don't know what we want, and clearly can not communicate what we are not sure that is...how can any responsible architect or super listen and be guided by our opinions?  If not golfers, who is wagging the dog?

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