Why even try Bentgrass in the South

[TX Golf]

A quick question to all of the grass experts out there. My recent experiences with courses in the South (mainly Texas) is that courses that offer Bent putting surfaces are considered to be superior to those that do not. However, I have yet to come across what I would consider great Bent putting surfaces down here. I know that at certain times of the year they roll great, however, it seems like it is an added expense and doesn't produce a better product. During the summer I have found that bent greens are over-watered due to the extreme heat. They are usually fairly shaggy, with ballmarks everywhere, and seem to lose their a solid root structure. Besides that, there are usually bare and thin spots that start to appear. Then, though the fall season they begin to recover and are finally once again in great shape for the spring season, only to go through the same process a few months later.

Why are clubs going through so much extra work to really only produce a great putting surface for a third of a year. It might be possible that the clubs I have been playing are just not maintaining them properly but it seems to be fairly widespread (if not please let me know).

There must be some sort of bermuda/dwarf grass that is capable of providing an excellent surface throughout the entire year. It seems that if maintained properly (firm, verticut, rolled, sanded) that bermuda is able to provide a solid and even speedy surface. Its not like the average public need greens that roll at 13 on the stimpmeter (bent would probably die if cut that short the majority of the time down here).

Hopefully someone can give me some insight.

Thanks

Robert

[Doug Bolls]

I also live, and play in Texas.  We had 18 holes with Bent and 18 holes with Tif-something.  The Bent was always stressed - ball marks, either overwatered or brown spots, shallow roots that were very evident in fixing a ballmark.
The Tif is healthy and virtually indistructable.  One year the (Ex) Super put a super fertilizer on it to quick-start the spring growth - killed all 18 greens.  Right down to the sand.  We painted them green for the summer, and kept the guests completely off the course.  Except the Tif didn't die - it grew back.  By the end of the summer/early fall, every green was perfect again.
Last year we decided to convert the Bent 18 completely to the Tif - an excellent move.
More predictable putting surface and costs of maintenance substantially lower.

[TX Golf]

Doug,

That seems to be the common situation down here. Bent just isn't meant to grow in this climate. I don't know if it is just ignorance and pride found on Green's Committees in that they think Bent is "better" but it is starting to drive me nuts.

[Richard Choi]

Can I expand this to include West?

It seems to me whenever you have bent grass greens in the west, it is just a losing battle against Poa. A brand new golf course with a beautiful bent grass greens will inevitably turn to almost all poa within a decade, so why bother?

[John_Conley]

No expert here, but if I ever put my money in to a golf project there is no way I'd let them try Bent if the course is in Texas, Florida, or the rest of the SE.  It doesn't do well and the newer strains of dwarf Bermuda are fine surfaces.

[Tom_Doak]

Pretty much every developer I've ever talked to wanted to put in bentgrass greens because they are perceived as "the best" by potential members and lot buyers ... regardless of whether the local climate is suitable for bentgrass.  There have been great strides made with Bermuda cultivars in recent years and there is no excuse for this reasoning any longer, but it persists.

Richard, the west is a different story.  I understand that it's hard to keep poa annua out of bentgrass, but what's your alternative?  Just plant them to poa annua to begin with?  Not many people are going to vote for that, although they have been doing research with poa annua to come up with a variety that doesn't produce seedheads in the spring.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think the perception in Texas is changing.  Only a few high end clubs use bent now. Others us Tif Eagle, Champions, or Mini Verde Bermuda, at least in DFW and south. West Texas and far north Texas are still considered bent territory because of lower max temps and lower humidity.

For most of Texas, bent requires a life support system of great water quality (rare commodity here), fans, sub air, tree cutting, big greens, low play, etc.  A few years ago, a super told me that he saved $40K in chemicals when he switched to Bermuda, although he gave back similar amounts in overseeding costs in the fall.

[paul cowley]

 Don't forget Paspalum.....I'm very encouraged. The good things really are, and the bad things aren't as much IMO.

Probably much of the comparison will be personal preference......like, although Roberts two chicks are cool on his posts heading.....I still prefer Jeff's photo standing tartan proud!

[John Kavanaugh]

In 20 years I do not believe there will be a new bentgrass green built in the United States.  Water rights, noise and aesthetic pollution from fans and other artificial air circulation devices, the ever increasing hands off electronification of superintendancy will lead to the grasses that need less care, less expertise and a monoemblematic growth curve that does not change from region to region.  Uniformity and indestructibility will take precedence over diva like strains too complicated to grow without mechanical intervention.

[Paul Carey]

Another problem with Bent in the south is the requirement of so many fans around the greens.  "A walk in the park" is ruined by 1,2 sometimes 4 or 5 fans stationed around the greens.  

The new bermuda strains are so good  I see no reason to plant bent.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

You are probably right on the water rights and indestructability issues.  Not sure anything will really make grass growing to require less expertise. It would take more to grow any grass under strict water restrictions, chemical restrictions, etc.  

Paul Carey,

Years ago at a senior event in Austin, the course had bermuda practice putting greens (to relieve stress from traffic) and bent greens on th course that were suffering.  All the Tour Pros were grousing that "if the super can grow the putting green, why not on the real course?"  If that level of player can't tell the difference between bent and bermuda, I don't see why the rest of us should percieve that we can.

Paul Cowley,

Tartan Proud?  That's what I wanted to name my first kid!  Could be a good golf club name, since it went unused.

[paul cowley]

I'm with you John.....unless they come up with some new superman hybrids that lack the problems of modern bent.

I'm generally against elitism wherever it exists....even in grass.

I think it a weakness.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,

I did say 20 years and it is only grass.  It wasn't that difficult 100 years ago so why should it be in the future?

[Jerry Kluger]

I was told that Colonial has 84 fans around the course which cost $125K in electrical service.

[JESII]

You guys need to see the bent grass greens at Huntingdon Valley...they are far from elite in appearance, but they are simply the most consistently good to great putting surfaces in the region. I would wager that we have had less "maintainence days" than any other course in the area over the last ten years aggregate.

Every year you hear about 2 or 3 clubs closing for 11 months to re-grass...

Every few months you hear about 90% of the courses are virtually unplayable because of aeration...

Scott Anderson has a method that provides the people playing the course superior greens with virtually zero interruption for mainanance every single year. Frequently, the best the greens putt (on non-tournament days) is 3 - 6 days after an aeration. I can't explain the reason, and the small holes are still visible, but the ball rolls great...but Philadelphia is not exactly "the South"...I just didn't want bent grass to be universally considered elitist!

[Casey Wade]

In the Houston area, where I have been a golf professional for the past 8 years, I have come to the conclusion and so have a lot of other people that the bermuda strains need not be overseeded in the winter.  

It is better to have good greens in our peak seasons of March, April, May, September, October, and November than have "green" greens for December, January, February, and March, when we have typically our coldest weather.  There is no competition then for the start of overseeding and no competition when the bermuda comes out of dormancy.  Also, the past about 5 years, we have seen that our greens have only gone dormant for a few weeks to a month.  

This is typical in our area, which is different than say, Florida, where their peak seasons are Dec-March and want the tourist play.  Our area is not known for a ton of weekly golf groups traveling to Houston instead of Orlando.

Going back to bentgrass.  The bermuda strains are more hardy, require less amount of money to keep "alive", and have saved courses countless of thousands of dollars in our area that have decided not to overseed and have not seen their conditions, or their bottom line suffer.

[paul cowley]

I'm with you John.....unless they come up with some new superman hybrids that lack the problems of modern bent.

I'm generally against elitism wherever it exists....even in grass.

I think it a weakness.

Is that because it identifies a strain that's vulnerable to change because it lacks an ability to adapt?

[John Kavanaugh]

Another problem with Bent in the south is the requirement of so many fans around the greens.  "A walk in the park" is ruined by 1,2 sometimes 4 or 5 fans stationed around the greens.  

Fans have a strange romantic hold over the American public that I can not grasp.  I don't know if it is our Dutch roots, a harking back to conquering the west with the symbol of windmills or early memories of our mothers blowing on boo boos.  Fans are slowing finding their way onto our landscapes in the interest of decreasing pollution without thought to aesthetics or noise.  Who doesn't prefer one smokestack standing proud against the horizon to hundreds of fans that buzz and swarm on a hill like flies on a piece of summer pie.  One fan like one fly can be annoying and even amusing at times but like the maggot larvae that feed on that trash you forgot to take out, fans lurk in the pipeline of disorganization and over reaching budgets of the confused minds of the modern super.  Golf needs to be quieter, simpler, social and cheaper and fans  are blowing us in the opposite direction of each.  It is super over golfer, budget over affordability, cultivar over culture, sound over serenity.  I'm not a fan.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK,

Only club members sipping scotch in the clubhouse have declared grass growing easy over the last 100 years.  The supers who have to meet your expectations have never said that, except in rare cases where conditions are perfect.

And, with rising tools and grasses, those whiskey fed expectations will only go up - they are guaranteed to go up faster than any advances in agronomy due to human nature.  Members will always be anticipating the next advance rather than enjoying the ones they have now.

[paul cowley]

Something like that.

I'm also generally against over seeding Bermudas north of Florida....properly maintained dormant can be great!

[John Kavanaugh]

JK,

Only club members sipping scotch in the clubhouse have declared grass growing easy over the last 100 years.  The supers who have to meet your expectations have never said that, except in rare cases where conditions are perfect.

And, with rising tools and grasses, those whiskey fed expectations will only go up - they are guaranteed to go up faster than any advances in agronomy due to human nature.  Members will always be anticipating the next advance rather than enjoying the ones they have now.

Jeff,

I believe the social strata of the super has increased at an exponential rate far beyond that of the average golfer from 100 years ago to today.  I would even argue that golf is much more a game of the common man than 100 years ago.  Thus I do not buy into your notion that increased grass standards are the result of spoiled trust fund babies.

When do you think either members or supers first became unhappy with their regional grasses and tried to import grass that was not indigenous to a given area?  I'm only speculating that it was easy to grow grass 100 years ago because either supers or members were not forcing grass into an area that did not belong.  I might also argue that turf research/diva agronomy is a perverted form of job security and not what CEO's dream about during a lull at work.

[Tim Nugent]

Casey, believe it or not, yourgreens were an experiment.  David & I decided to gamble on the new (at the time) Tif-Eagle ultradwarf bermuda.  We felt that the thinner grass blade was consistent with average bents and would take less effoert to maintain.  The first year the greens were overseeded at a half rate. It was found that the Tif didn't go dormment so that practicewas abandoned thus saving time, $$$, and no disruption in play that accompanies an overseeding operation.  Like to see the LOGO, can you make it bigger?

Paul Cowley's correct in that more attention should be paid to Paspalum, less water, can tolerate salty water, minimum disease pressure - could be the future (in warm season areas).

JK - let's not forget that a reason for grass being easier to grow 100 yrs ago was it wasn't cut to .08".  The stress this places on turf is immense and in marginal areas - one bad day is all it takes to puke a green. 

One needs to look at the climate in which the course is located.  The toughest area is the transition zone (where John lives) because the summers call for warm season grasses but the winters can get cold enough to kill it.  Most courses will want to insure that come spring, they will have greens so they won't risk warm season greens and will suffer with cool season bent, knowing that they can always overseed after Labor Day and get the greens back by spring.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK - let's not forget that a reason for grass being easier to grow 100 yrs ago was it wasn't cut to .08".  The stress this places on turf is immense and in marginal areas - one bad day is all it takes to puke a green. 

Which trust fund baby first went out and jumped on a mower to lower the height?  Members may wish to copy what they see at other courses but I don't believe they are out developing new and better maintenance procedures.  It's like blaming the elderly for taking too many prescriptions.  What really is so awful about a nice long pee session.

[Lester George]

Jeff,

Should we all use our Tartan shots as our official picture here?  Wait a minute, would that mean Paul would have to reveal?  I talked to Dawn and already know the answer.

Lester

[Casey Wade]

Casey, believe it or not, yourgreens were an experiment.  David & I decided to gamble on the new (at the time) Tif-Eagle ultradwarf bermuda.  We felt that the thinner grass blade was consistent with average bents and would take less effoert to maintain.  The first year the greens were overseeded at a half rate. It was found that the Tif didn't go dormment so that practicewas abandoned thus saving time, $$$, and no disruption in play that accompanies an overseeding operation.  Like to see the LOGO, can you make it bigger?

Paul Cowley's correct in that more attention should be paid to Paspalum, less water, can tolerate salty water, minimum disease pressure - could be the future (in warm season areas).

JK - let's not forget that a reason for grass being easier to grow 100 yrs ago was it wasn't cut to .08".  The stress this places on turf is immense and in marginal areas - one bad day is all it takes to puke a green. 

One needs to look at the climate in which the course is located.  The toughest area is the transition zone (where John lives) because the summers call for warm season grasses but the winters can get cold enough to kill it.  Most courses will want to insure that come spring, they will have greens so they won't risk warm season greens and will suffer with cool season bent, knowing that they can always overseed after Labor Day and get the greens back by spring.

Tim, I moved down here in August of 2000 to be the General Manager at Lake Windcrest where we also put in Tif Eagle.  We did the same overseeding the first couple of years before the superintendant and I convinced the management group that the overall playability and revenues would not suffer.

I'll work on enlarging the logo.