Why even try Bentgrass in the South

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK,

Oddly enough, it was about 100 years ago that old CBM couldn't get grass to grow at NGLA. Oakley and those guys were springing into action to figure out what grasses to use in the new country.  Can't say it was easy then.

If you don't think 100 years of agronomy advancements has something to do with member expectations (fueld by TV golf in the last 50) then you have dipped too far into the whiskey.  Yes, supers take pride in presenting the best possible golf course, and scientists and turf companies seek profit by providing a better mouse trap, but if there was no demand, nothing would sell.  Its not just trust fund babies who demand great playing conditons.

Lester,

Its just an old photo of me.  But, I am proud of the tartan. If you cut me, I would bleed not red, but red Ross Tartan!

You and Paul can post your jacket/kilt pix and I endorse it.  I know what you mean about Paul.....when he talks of his "hidden gems"  we all hope they stay that way......

And one of my Carnac classics was:

A.  "Tenderloins"

Q.  "What lies beneath Paul Cowley's Tartan Kilt?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Why try bent in the South?

Because every once in awhile, someone gets it right and the surface is so good and true others think they can do the same. But finding the right mix of requirements to succeed with bent in the South is tough.  You need good water quality, adequate resources, good construction, a club/course that understands the maintenance needs of bent, (work on the bent’s schedule not the member’s) and most importantly finding, and retaining, a Superintendent who can maintain a quality bent putting surface during stress periods. Leave anything out and you’ll have a tough time with bent. .

[TX Golf]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the responses. I have been working at one of the most respected clubs here in the DFW area for the last four years that has insisted on Bent. They have all the resources they could ever want (money, sub-air, water, maintenance staff) and they haven't been able to make it work. Already on their second superintendent and things aren't looking any better. Yet, if you mention Bermuda to any of the members they scoff at the idea. Hopefully things will change but we will have to wait and see.

Could anybody give me some insight as to why Poa Annua is only a problem on the west coast??

[John_Conley]

You guys need to see the bent grass greens at Huntingdon Valley...
but Philadelphia is not exactly "the South"...I just didn't want bent grass to be universally considered elitist!

Philadelphia is definitely not the South, unless of course we are discussing Dancing Rabbit.

Bent is great.  Where it grows.

[John_Conley]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the responses. I have been working at one of the most respected clubs here in the DFW area for the last four years that has insisted on Bent. They have all the resources they could ever want (money, sub-air, water, maintenance staff) and they haven't been able to make it work. Already on their second superintendent and things aren't looking any better. Yet, if you mention Bermuda to any of the members they scoff at the idea. Hopefully things will change but we will have to wait and see.

Could anybody give me some insight as to why Poa Annua is only a problem on the west coast??

Robert, it is so frustrating to play golf in Dallas or a similar area where you are putting on crap greens at the high-end course just KNOWING they could have a great Tifeagle/Champion/whatever surface. 

Every time I ask myself the same question you did.  WHY!!?

Glad the responses are unanimous.

[JESII]

You guys need to see the bent grass greens at Huntingdon Valley...
but Philadelphia is not exactly "the South"...I just didn't want bent grass to be universally considered elitist!

Philadelphia is definitely not the South, unless of course we are discussing Dancing Rabbit.

Bent is great.  Where it grows.

You're right...I was more responding to the bent grass as elitist tangent Kavanaugh and Cowley jumped off on...the bent at HVCC definitely does not appear elitist...

[Don_Mahaffey]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the responses. I have been working at one of the most respected clubs here in the DFW area for the last four years that has insisted on Bent. They have all the resources they could ever want (money, sub-air, water, maintenance staff) and they haven't been able to make it work. Already on their second superintendent and things aren't looking any better. Yet, if you mention Bermuda to any of the members they scoff at the idea. Hopefully things will change but we will have to wait and see.

Could anybody give me some insight as to why Poa Annua is only a problem on the west coast??

Robert,
I've seen some very good bent greens in North Texas, so it certainly is possible to have bent surfaces in that area. Bent may not be the sensible choice for many courses, but it can be done and done well...don't you agree?

Poa is a problem just about everywhere. It's a problem in the coastal west because it acts more as a perennial than an annual and once it starts to take over, the transition from bent to poa is not pretty.

BTW, I believe the technology exists for a talented Superintendent to maintain a bent surface in areas where traditionally the greens have been poa. It requires great diligence but I do not believe it is a given that greens need to convert to poa over time in areas like coastal California. 

[TX Golf]

Don,

I would absolutely agree that it can be done. I recently played TPC Craig Ranch and the greens were rolling around 10.5 on the stimp and were smooth and healthy as can be. However, I have found that the majority of the courses for one reason or another aren't able to pull it off. As has been discussed many times, grass growing is not an easy thing to do.

I asked the question about Poa because I am actually from Northern California and a course I play just put in Bent greens. This course also has plenty of resources but I continually hear from people on this website that there is no holding the poa back. I guess we will have to wait and see. Is it the climate that allows the Poa to act as a perennial and not an annual. Would hotter or colder weather do something to change this??

What makes you believe that Poa infestation is preventable (tools, chemicals, whatever... This is all new to me)

Thanks

Robert

[John_Conley]

Don,

I would absolutely agree that it can be done. I recently played TPC Craig Ranch and the greens were rolling around 10.5 on the stimp and were smooth and healthy as can be.

I'm a Craig Ranch fan.  I would have enjoyed it just as much with Tifeagle or similar.

[JMEvensky]

Don,

I would absolutely agree that it can be done. I recently played TPC Craig Ranch and the greens were rolling around 10.5 on the stimp and were smooth and healthy as can be.

I'm a Craig Ranch fan.  I would have enjoyed it just as much with Tifeagle or similar.

That's the thing-convincing members that the miniscule extra "puttability" of bent vs. a new bermuda hybrid isn't worth it.Given an adequate maintenance budget,you can grow bent.But,the risk/reward just doesn't make much sense.Certainly not in the deep south.

[Jon Wiggett]

Pretty much every developer I've ever talked to wanted to put in bentgrass greens because they are perceived as "the best" by potential members and lot buyers ... regardless of whether the local climate is suitable for bentgrass.  There have been great strides made with Bermuda cultivars in recent years and there is no excuse for this reasoning any longer, but it persists.

Richard, the west is a different story.  I understand that it's hard to keep poa annua out of bentgrass, but what's your alternative?  Just plant them to poa annua to begin with?  Not many people are going to vote for that, although they have been doing research with poa annua to come up with a variety that doesn't produce seedheads in the spring.

Tom,

as your post hints, bentgrass (Agrostis palustris) is sold by the industry as the best grass for all situations. It never ceases to amaze me how little people inform themselves despite spending such vast amounts of money. They will worry about the location of a single bunker and act as if it will ruin the whole project but the grass selection they leave happily to an article they read some years ago.

By the way Poa will also produces seed heads when it is under stress.

[David_Madison]

Is anyone aware of successful transitions to any of the dwarf bermuda's in North Carolina. We're right in the middle of the transition zone, in the Research Triangle Park area.

[Tom Yost]

Don,

I would absolutely agree that it can be done. I recently played TPC Craig Ranch and the greens were rolling around 10.5 on the stimp and were smooth and healthy as can be.

I'm a Craig Ranch fan.  I would have enjoyed it just as much with Tifeagle or similar.

I had to laugh out loud, because I know of a Craig Ranch golf course in N. Las Vegas.  Let's just say nobody would mistake it for a TPC.   

A handful of Phoenix area upscale publics that opened in the 90's debuted with bent greens but for the most part, all have gradually replaced them with bermuda.  I think there are still some privates successfully keeping their bent greens, maybe because they see less play?

I played the Faldo course at Wildfire two weeks ago.  The bent greens were pretty marked up. They were so soft, any approach left a large pitch mark, in fact, I had a ball plug in one green.  The staff told me they have to keep them that wet to keep them alive. Not sure I believe that.   By the way, the Palmer course is closed while they replace the greens with bermuda.

[mike_beene]

I still much prefer bent for Dallas golf.We regrassed with a newer strain maybe 3 years ago and it is night and day better.The greens are still fast in August but a little mushy.But remember,August is a very low play month here.Our big seasons are spring and fall,and bent is a firm,fast smooth tabletop. Even the very best Bermuda still has some grain .The bent doesn't.I do prefer bermuda over bad bent,of which there is plenty.

[Mike_Young]

Hey supts...are te maintenance and cultural practices of the untradwardfs going to be more or less than bent....I keep hearing all ranges....

[Ian Larson]

Mike,

The ultradwarfs are still a stoloniferous grass plant. Therefore they still require the same if not more cultivation to maintain the thatch/organic material production and a healthy rootzone.

[Steve Okula]

I asked the question about Poa because I am actually from Northern California and a course I play just put in Bent greens. This course also has plenty of resources but I continually hear from people on this website that there is no holding the poa back. I guess we will have to wait and see. Is it the climate that allows the Poa to act as a perennial and not an annual. Would hotter or colder weather do something to change this??

What makes you believe that Poa infestation is preventable (tools, chemicals, whatever... This is all new to me)

Robert

Don is a very knowledgeable guy, and I would be interested to hear more about how he would go about maintaining pure bent greens anywhere.

Bents become susceptible to invasion from Poa due to the low mowing heights, cultural practices, and fertilizers required to provide the putting surfaces, especially the speed golfers today demand.

The theory that I'm familar with to keep Poa at bay means you mow bent (or bent/fescue) high, around 1/4 inch. You do minimal disruption of the surface when the Poa is in seed, meaning no aerating or verticutting April-July, and you reduce fertilizer to tiny amounts of nitrogen and not much else. Don't forget to induce lots of drought stress. I've never tried it, because it would be job suicide, in my opinion.

That said, I did have Poa-free bent greens for three years, in Tenerife, the Canary Islands. Hot climate, but good water and above all no humidity meant that there was no disease pressure, and the hot dry climate was unfavorable to Poa. Also, there was hardly any Poa eslewhere on the island.

I became convinced that the real enemy of bentgrass isn't the heat, but the humidity. I had a much easier time managing bentgrass greeens in sub-tropical Tenerife than I did in Maryland or North Carolina.

But I'd like to hear from Don, who always knows what he's talking about.

[BCrosby]

Mike Beene -

Do you have one of the A strains of bent? August is the only month in which you need to keep things "mushy" in Dallas? If so, that's an impressive new cultivar.

There are debates about this issue at every big club in Atlanta. The trend seems to be to convert, but it is not universal. 

Bob 

[mike_beene]

Bob, I believe so but am not sure.I know these are much improved over our prior bent greens which were less than 10 years old.Coore and Crenshaw were in charge of the grass we selected but I am not sure what it was.I do think our supt,Mike Plummer is the best in our region.

[Bryan_Pennington]

David M-

We are in the same area.  The only course I know that has switched is Benvenue CC in Rocky Mount (Ross 1922).  Based on the feedback from members and those that have played the new grass, all reviews are very favorable.

My course switched to an A strand 3 or so year ago. We have struggled with the softness in the summer but a recent change in top dressing (light sand every week) and rolling the greens 3-4 times per week has greatly improved our green conditions (firm, speed and ball marks).  The recent drought has made us reconsider how much water we use and course is playing much better because of the reduced water.  Keep in mind, August is still a challenge, but it was much better this year and will only improve as the weather cools.

[TX Golf]

As frustrated as I get with Bentgrass during the summer months (when I started this thread), I do understand why they have it. Is there a better time for bent greens that late November/early December?!?! Its cooler, not much water on the greens, and have had time to recover from a fall aeration. I have putted on some great greens lately that were complete crap over the summer.

[Bradley Anderson]

Jeff,

I believe the social strata of the super has increased at an exponential rate far beyond that of the average golfer from 100 years ago to today.  I would even argue that golf is much more a game of the common man than 100 years ago.  Thus I do not buy into your notion that increased grass standards are the result of spoiled trust fund babies.

When do you think either members or supers first became unhappy with their regional grasses and tried to import grass that was not indigenous to a given area?  I'm only speculating that it was easy to grow grass 100 years ago because either supers or members were not forcing grass into an area that did not belong.  I might also argue that turf research/diva agronomy is a perverted form of job security and not what CEO's dream about during a lull at work.

John,

Maybe this will answer your question.

[Bradley Anderson]

This is the copy I tried upload in the previous post.

Resolution Adopted by the United States Golf
Association, November 30, 1920

Resolved, That a Green Section of the United States Golf Association
be and is hereby created for the purpose of collecting and distributing
among members of the Section information of value respecting the proper
maintenance and upkeep of golf courses.
The Green Section shall be composed of delegates and permanent
members, as herein provided. Delegates may be nominated by any golf
club in the United States or Canada, whether affiliated with the United
States Golf Association or not, and each such club may appoint one dele~
gate provided that no person having any direct or indirect financial interest
in the sale of any article, material or service used in the maintenance
and upkeep of golf courses shall be eligible to membership.
The Green Section shall be conducted by a committee to be known
as the "Green Committee of the United States Golf Association," which
shall be eomposed of 25 members, one-half of whom shall be appointed by
the President of the United States Golf Association and the other half
shall be elected by the delegates and permanent members.
The officers of the Green Committee shall be a chairman and two vice
chairmen, who shall be appointed by the president of the United States
Golf Association and shall be ex officio members of the Green Committee.
The members of the Green Committee shall hold office for one year
or until their successors are appointed, and any vacancies occuring in the
Committee for any cause shall be filled by the remaining members of
the Committee. The number of members of the Green Committee may be
increased at any time by a vote of the Committee, and in such case the
additional members shall be appointed for the remainder of the year by the
Committee and thereafter shall be appointed or elected as herein provided.
Persons who have contributed in a scientific or practical way to the
betterment of American golf courses may be appointed permanent members
by the Green Committee.
The permanent members and the delegates to the Green Section
shall meet at least once a year at the time of the annual meeting of the
United States Golf Association or at the time and place of the amateur
championship or at a time and place fixed by the Green Committee, and
said meeting shall be for the discussion of subjects of interest and the
election of members of the Green Committee.
The expense of conducting the Green Section shall be borne by the
clubs which appoint delegates to such section, and the dues of each club
shall be fixed by the Green Committee.
SUGGESTED FORM OF NOMINATION
The undersigned hereby nominates , whose
address is , as their delegate to
the Green Section of the Unitcd States Golf Assoeiation.
Check for $ covering first year's ducs is cnclosed.
(Golf Club)
Add rcss .