[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

Intersting that the topo on the No. 1 E at Merion doesn't show the original Alps 10th green.  Wouldn't it show that if this was the drawing to remodel 1 as a result on the decision not to cross Ardmore Ave?  Or was that blown out in 1916 and this is a later drawing showing ammendments to the bunkers only?

Thanks in advance and here's hoping I don't open another Merion thread/worm can with a simple question......a guy can dream, can't he?

Jeff,

The old 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th were gone by 1924.

The change to the 1st took place by 1930.

I'm sure Wayne has exact specifics.   

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

The drawing I posted of #1 is from 1930.  With the preparations in place for the 1930 Amateur, all traces of the rerouted and redesigned holes were completely gone as was the original 1st hole which was completely redesigned.

There were still very identifiable remnants of the original 10-13 holes during the 1924 Amateur.  As I recall, an aerial photo of Merion taken during the 1924 Amateur in Geoff Shackelford's book, The Golden Age of Golf Design shows the features clearly.  We have collected about 200 aerial and ground photos of the earlier days of Merion East.  The architectural evolution is pretty clear to see.  When combined with board minutes and other archival material, we have the history pretty well put together.

[Thomas MacWood]

Chris,

Thanks for clearing that up.  Not really knowing a lot about the history of Southern Hills and Old Town Club, I wasn't sure if they were of a style or resulted in maintenance practices over the years.  Has there been a discussion to return them to their former forms?

Tom MacWood,

Your opinion of these bunkers as being similar does not at all take into account the topography on which they sit.  From your desk in Ohio, I'm sure everything looks similar.  The floors of the bunkers move in different directions depending upon site specific ground movement.  In any case, I don't think they have a similar look on paper and especially on the ground.  If you consider a similarity of design style a negative, what do you think of linear/geometric shapes with flat bottoms? 

As for your surprise that I didn't include any with undulating expanses of sand, I did.  Check out Indian Creek.  If you tell Creek Club where they can find that aerial you allege is 1923 or 1924, I'll be happy to post more drawings for you.  Until you share more of what you have--with the clubs that extended you courtesies, I think it is a bit ill-advised for you to tell me I should post more.  By the way, of course Flynn illustrated (with some versions inked by a draftsman) the sandy areas in the formal plans.  Perhaps you should try looking at them. 

Now as to your suggestion that early photos of Cascades had a Macdonald-like look, I believe you are mistaken.  Pictures can be deceiving and those bunkers changed quite a bit over the years.  They are now much closer to the original final plans.  If you are talking about the look while Flynn was alive, you might make that claim of the bunkering on the 11th hole, but I would say you are referring to a more recent look and are not familiar with the original look.  But keep looking for that ubiquitous Macdonald influence.  It is out there.

No I'm talking about early photographs at Cascades.

I have noticed the bunkers at Cascades did change over the years. Wasn't Flynn tinkering with that course over a many year period? Muirfield Village and Crooked Stick are modern examples of bunkers changing as the architect evolved his style as he tinkered.

[TEPaul]

Let's put it this way, the grassing treatment surrounding the bunkers of The Cascades as apparently done by Flynn (through the years) was something that I would say Wayne and I have never seen before on a Flynn course. To me it was pretty strange and it was different.

[wsmorrison]

One feature on many Flynn bunkers is the sand flashed high on the faces.  Where do you think this practice originated?  Did it exist prior to Merion?

[SPDB]

Tom MacWood,

Your opinion of these bunkers as being similar does not at all take into account the topography on which they sit.  From your desk in Ohio, I'm sure everything looks similar.   

Well hold on a sec here.  I don't think this is a fair rejoinder.  If I'm correct, a number of the hole plans you posted were either never built or no longer exist or were not built as specified.  If so, all we have are plans (and maybe you have some ground level shots), which, after all, you posted to illustrate your point.

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

One hole was not redesigned (3rd at Merion West) and one hole either didn't have the bunkering redone but did have the green redesigned (14th at Cascades) or it did have the bunkering done but it has been lost.  We did some core samples at Cascades and didn't find sand...but that area floods A LOT, 25 square miles of Virginia mountains empty through that area.  Everything else was built.  What significance is there if they no longer exist?  None whatsoever as long as they were built as drawn.   Besides, there are more than a thousand other examples I could have posted. 

It remains a fair response to MacWood's assessment.

[Chris_Clouser]

Jeff,

Yes his style did change over the years, but it was never of the saucer shape variety.  Much of his Oklahoma work had a simpler style, but they were never simple shapes and always had some ruggedness to them. 

[Dan Moore]

Harry Collis greens keeper at Flossmoor CC and architect of several Chicago area courses (e.g. Longwood and Glenwoodie) in the 1920's used saucer shaped bunkers.   So at least in the Chicago area saucer shaped bunkers predated Robert Bruce Harris. 

Here are some examples from Collis' Longwood.  Photos are from last year and it appreared they were slowly restoring some of the lost bunkers. 

Sorry.  Back to Flynn. 

Lost Fairway Bunker


Old Greenside Bunker


Restored Fairway Bunker

[Bradley Anderson]

Wayne,

On these wonderful drawings that you have posted, I note that the various bunkers are referenced by letters A, B, C and so on. Did Flynn generate another set of drawings, or written directions, for each of those bunkers that are referenced?

Also I notice that there are no elevations in these drawings between the bunkers and the putting surface, or any embankment turf buffer between the sand and the putting turf. Where those details supplied from other maps or directions?
 

[wsmorrison]

Bradley,

Flynn would have a set of detailed construction instructions discuss slope from certain points on a green and height of mounds and depth of bunkers.  He had a crew that worked with him on nearly every project and essentially 2 construction foremen (Lawrence and Gordon--though Maples oversaw his only NC project).  So it was relatively easy for him to communicate his specific instructions.  In the field, Flynn would stake out contours to a very precise degree.  Some of the details relating to elevations between bunkers and greens would have been supplied in this manner.  For the most part, Flynn's bunkers were right next to the greens, with little spacing.  There are only a few drawings where I've seen separation, Philadelphia CC had one.

Here is an example of a drawing with some construction instruction, Flynn's redesign of the 18th at Huntingdon Valley's Noble Course, before they moved to the present location.

[Mark_Fine]

Here is a photo of that grassing treatment that Tom Paul was referring to on one of the greenside bunkers that was restored to Flynn's specs at The Cascades:

[TEPaul]

"Here is a photo of that grassing treatment that Tom Paul was referring to on one of the greenside bunkers that was restored to Flynn's specs at The Cascades:

Mark:

It looks like they're trying to recreate the look. Have you ever seen photos of those bunker surrounds in the 1930s? Very unusual.

[DMoriarty]

One feature on many Flynn bunkers is the sand flashed high on the faces.  Where do you think this practice originated?  Did it exist prior to Merion?

Not sure where it originated.   

Macdonald's Sahara bunker  in 1910:

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Paul,
Yes I have seen early photos and the grassing does seem unique.  What surprised me at The Cascades, however, was not so much the grassing but the lack of depth of the many of the bunkers.  Most are two dimensional like the one shown.  I have not studied the history there as you and Wayne have but rock could be a culprit, however, these days that could be addressed in reconstruction.  Otherwise, the shapes and placement are fairly typical of what I'd expect from Flynn. 

If I could summarize in one short paragraph, I would say that on the majority of Flynn's courses, his bunkers can best be described as ordinary in shape and style.  To Flynn, their placement was what was most important.  However, on seaside courses, he made hazards that were brilliant and unique, varying his parkland style of bunker to fit the site.  He felt hazards in general need not be numerous, but instead well placed to arouse lively interest.  Also remember, he was a superintendent and was concerned about building bunkers/hazards that were maintainable.  I know he flashed some sand (I called the early bunkers at Merion "cresting waves" vs. the "crashing waves" that are there now) but I don't believe that he used a lot of flashed sand elsewhere.  If for example a bunker was located below eye level, Flynn was smart enough to realize that there was no real need to take sand all the way to the top edge as it was clearly visible without doing so (and easier to maintain).  On a side note, if you want to see how difficult high flashed sand can be to maintain, go to Winged Foot after a heavy rain storm and witness all the hand maintenance that is required to push all that sand back up on the faces.  Flynn would have cringed 

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I agree that the rocky soil at Cascades prevented deep bunkers.  However, it was also designed as a resort course, so I doubt there was much impetus to create very difficult bunkering.  The club management wanted an historical restoration and not a costly remodel.  That's what they got.

As for Flynn not flashing sand at many other courses outside of Merion, that is not the case.  He did so more often than not.  Whether they were maintained that way over the years is another matter.  The bunkering at the seaside courses:  Indian Creek, Boca Raton North and South, Shinnecock Hills, Atlantic City CC, Kittansett (though nearly all bunkers are raised above grade due to rocky soil), Floranada, Normandy Shores and Opa Locka all had or intended to have flashed sand faces.  Of inland courses, Rolling Green, Philadelphia Country, Huntingdon Valley, Mill Road Farm, Pine Valley, TCCs in Brookline and Pepper Pike, among others all had flashed sand.

On a side note, if you want to see how difficult high flashed sand can be to maintain, go to Winged Foot after a heavy rain storm and witness all the hand maintenance that is required to push all that sand back up on the faces

As you know, Flynn was a master of designing surface drainage.  Toomey and Flynn construction crews were masters of blending these drainage features beautifully into the landscape.  Maybe Tillinghast wasn't quite as good 

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
Yes I have seen early photos and the grassing does seem unique.  What surprised me at The Cascades, however, was not so much the grassing but the lack of depth of the many of the bunkers.  Most are two dimensional like the one shown.  I have not studied the history there as you and Wayne have but rock could be a culprit, however, these days that could be addressed in reconstruction.  Otherwise, the shapes and placement are fairly typical of what I'd expect from Flynn. "


Mark:

Subsurface rock probably is the reason the bunkers of Cascades were always so shallow, at least in some sections of the course. The bunker left of #4 was drawn to extend considerably in front of the green on the left but it was not originally built that way and the club thinks the reason is a rock strata is pretty close under the surface there, and probably in other ridgy areas of the course like that one.

It surprised me the other day to hear the Oakmont historian remark that some of W.C. Fownes' bunkers at Oakmont originally were sort of like patches of sand on the ground (almost no depth). But maybe that was just their initial configuration as Fownes was well known to throw bunkers in at a moment's notice (like with Leeds of Myopia apparently bunkers at Oakmont could appear almost overnight). At one time the course had well over 200 bunkers.

[mike_malone]

 Mark Fine says that Flynn was mostly concerned with the placement of bunkers. Do others agree with that?

  If so, why would one propose placing a bunker or two where Flynn never placed one?

[Thomas MacWood]

If I could summarize in one short paragraph, I would say that on the majority of Flynn's courses, his bunkers can best be described as ordinary in shape and style.  To Flynn, their placement was what was most important.  However, on seaside courses, he made hazards that were brilliant and unique, varying his parkland style of bunker to fit the site.  He felt hazards in general need not be numerous, but instead well placed to arouse lively interest.  Also remember, he was a superintendent and was concerned about building bunkers/hazards that were maintainable.  I know he flashed some sand (I called the early bunkers at Merion "cresting waves" vs. the "crashing waves" that are there now) but I don't believe that he used a lot of flashed sand elsewhere.  If for example a bunker was located below eye level, Flynn was smart enough to realize that there was no real need to take sand all the way to the top edge as it was clearly visible without doing so (and easier to maintain).  On a side note, if you want to see how difficult high flashed sand can be to maintain, go to Winged Foot after a heavy rain storm and witness all the hand maintenance that is required to push all that sand back up on the faces.  Flynn would have cringed 

Are you referring to the large waste areas as the brilliant and unique bunkers on seaside courses? I would agree with Wayne, it seems to me most of Flynn's bunkers, inland and seaside, were flashed, perhaps not to the extend of Winged Foot, but flashed as opposed to having grassed over perimeters. Would Cherry Hills be one of the exceptions? Is the Cascades Flynn's first high profile design?

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I trust you didn't realize that those high flashed sand bunkers at Winged Foot are the work of Fazio.  Don't blame Tillie  

I said Flynn flashed some sand but it was not his most prevalent style.  Then again, maybe we are just defining "flashing" differently.  I am not implying that most of Flynn's bunkers were completely grass faced with sand only on the floors.  They were not! When I think of "flashed" sand I am thinking of sand flashed high up the faces as someone like Mackenzie would routinely do.  To use the Fazio flashed bunkers at Winged Foot as an example - not a lot of Flynn's bunkers would look like that, I don't care how good Flynn was at drainage  

Tom Paul,
I would have guessed rock was the primary reason.  I doubt Flynn dumbed down the course for resort play.  His design principles were too high for that.  I'm just curious if his "specs" on the drawings called for such shallow depths or was this a field change when he found out he was hitting rock everywhere on the site?

Regarding Oakmont, as you well know, Fownes and Loeffler hated shallow bunkers.  The heavy red clay (and lack of drainage) is what prevented them from digging deeper hazards.  This is one of the reasons they introduced the furrows in the bunkers - to compensate for the lack of depth.  At one time the course had nearly 350 bunkers.  We have an old voice interview with Jack Snyder (Senior) decribing the course in the early days when we worked with Fownes and Loeffler.  You would love to listen to it.  He describes everything about the course and much of its early evolution.  

[Mark_Fine]

Tom M,
I just saw your post.  Again, I think we are on the same page regarding "flashing".  As you seem to define it, any bunker that has sand on any part of the face "is deemed flashed".  That's fine if that is your definition.  No problem.  But when I think of flashed sand, I think of bunkers like at Winged Foot or Royal Melborne where it is right to the top.  Flynn was usually somewhere in between with the amount of sand that he flashed.  I tried to point this out in my example of an elevated or downhill shot toward a bunker below.  No need to flash sand all the way to the top edge of that bunker as it just created more maintenance issues. 

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Flynn built courses without bunkers and added them later after he studied how the course played.  I'm sure he would make adjustments today as he of all people knew golf was evolving.  At the same time, the key (at least when it comes to restoration) is understanding and respecting original design intent (I will throw in restoring asthetics as well).  At least that is how I see it. 

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I would love to hear the voice interview with Jack Snyder (Senior). It sounds like an item that should be part of the archives of Oakmont and probably the USGA Architecture Archive too. Do you want me to put you in touch with the historian or do you already know him?

Jack Snyder (the son) is also an interesting guy in the maintenance history of Oakmont. Apparently he stepped in for a time following Loeffler and Fownes' death when Loeffler's brother was installed as the greenkeeper and the club basically had a catastrophic situation with the greens from Dollarspot going into the 1953 US Open. Snyder was the superintendent for only 18 months through this disasterous situation. Not that it was his fault because according to the club's recent history book it was probably from the longterm effects of compaction due to too heavy rollers. But by the time the 1953 US Open was held Snyder was gone, having headed west.

[mike_malone]

 Mark,

    If it could be shown that he did come back and made several changes by adding bunkers but did not add bunkers to a hillside that was featureless( no trees) wouldn't that be a good indication that he thought the hillside was the intended hazard ?

[TEPaul]

Mark:

With the kind of sand flashed bunkering of the original Merion and Flynn style it was sand swept right to the top and up to an almost imperceptible grassline on top. There was basically no rollover of the top grassline at all. At least that's the way they were constructed and actually remained for some time at Merion (and other of Flynn's courses). The deal was the top grass line was allowed to sort of grow down in fingers and lacyness and such through the use of multiple grass types. Flynn was very much the grass expert, he was fascinated by all kinds of grass strains and his and Toomey's farm in Montgomery County (where some of their crew lived) was his own personal grass experimentation laboratory.

That lacy or fingery top grass line that was the look of the Merion White Faces into the 1930s took time to develop and the method of maintaining those top grass lines was pretty specific too. They were only cut with a scythe back then and that is something of a specialized art or was at Merion.

Later under Richie Valentine, the son of long term Merion Super Joe Valentine, they got into cutting those top lines with mechanized equipment and that lacy, fingery top line was basically lost and the top grass line got to look a bit cleaner and less prominent (some today call that old lacy, fingery top grassline look, elegant).

That somewhat cleaner and more clipped look (compared to the old lacy, fingery topline look) is the look the club maintained until the bunker project that began in the last decade where eventually they settled on a somewhat turfed and grass rolled over look that appears much heavier and grassier on top than anything Merion ever had before. Plus the grass is maintain much much longer top than it ever was previously in Merion's history. The latest and present look also minimizes the famous Merion sand flashed up look to some extent.

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