[wsmorrison]

It was brought up on another thread that Flynn should be taken to task for designing "saucer shaped bunkers."  I'm not so sure that is something to to take an architect to task for.  Maxwell seemed to do it often, at Southern Hills and particularly Old Town Club.  I don't think anyone thinks these designs are not solid and enjoyable designs.  The fact is, Flynn never designed a saucer shaped bunker.  Unlike most architects of the classic era, he designed on paper exactly as the course was to be built on the ground.  He was able to accomplish this process because he only worked a few golf courses at a time--his entire career inventory of original designs only numbers 52.  Working with Craig Disher, Tom and I determined that Flynn's design drawings, that is where we have the final iterations, were followed precisely.  Overlaying the drawing over old aerials proves this point.  So we can say for certain that the kinds of bunkers we see in the drawings are as they were built.

Here is a collection of Flynn drawings showing the variety of ways in which Flynn designed bunkers.  Maintenance practices over the years in some cases simplified the outlines of both bunkers and greens.  Both would, without proper oversight, become simpler in outlines towards circles or ovals.  The simple shapes seen on Flynn's courses are not as they were designed nor as they were built.  I'll try to put photographs on here to corroborate if there's enough interest demonstrated.

Flynn's bunker style varied dramatically, particularly by the site (seaside, mountain, parkland, etc.).  His range was from small discreet bunkers to large undulating sandy waste areas.  The more dynamic the topography the less bunkering he introduced.  Flynn went significantly further with his designs using the toplines and angles of bunkers to misdirect players into thinking bunkers were perpendicular to the line of play rather than on an angle, often resulting on misclubbing for those that didn't figure it out.  He also used raised toplines of bunkers, particularly ones that encroached on fairways and the line of play to hide landing areas and foreshorten distances.  He was a brilliant practitioner of bunkers and all aspects of golf design.  Any attempt to simplify his talent in this and other regards is misplaced.  Any attempt to seek Macdonald's influence in this regard would likewise be in error 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Wayne,

You mean Flynn drew plans that were accurate?  According to Tony Ristola, and a few others on this site, he must be a real hack!

How dare he draw plans so that he might not have to be on just one job every stinking day of his life.  How dare he!

Speaking of his bunkers, it appears that his bunkers had shapes other than saucers, but he never favored the more dramatic bunker shaping of MacKenzie. 

He could be more practical, since simpler shapes are simpler to maintain, or maybe he looked at bunkers shapes in Scotland (or heard tales from Wilson, who I understand made a trip there ......) and decided that they just looked to contrived for his tastes.

However, he did have a hand in the White Faces of Merion, no?  They had some pretty good shapes in spots.  And in other cases, it appears to my eye that he did his most impressive bunker work by artful arrangement of a few more bunkers, or sometimes, placed a massive array of bunkers to impress far beyond the mere shape of one bunker.

Both styles work.

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

Well stated.  He did not go in for the overly dramatic like MacKenzie, who I think overbunkered his courses and over-framed his greens (I'm in a very small minority here).  Nor did he ever let the bunkers dominate a course like Tillinghast did at Bethpage Black to the detriment of some dynamic topography.  He didn't have a big ego, rarely self-promoted himself (there were a grand total of 3 Flynn-Peters advertisements in 1916).  He was the Nature Faker.  His personality lent itself to the restraint he showed in using nature as much as possible and mimicking nature where he did intervene.  He was not of the MacKenzie and Tillinghast school of "Look at me and what I can do"    Nor did he have so identifiable a style as Raynor and Banks which left no doubt in who the architect was. 

Like the Quaker City that adopted him, Flynn learned understatement.  Of course, he could get flamboyant at times such as the plans for the revision of the 14th at Cascades (essentially a flat site) and bunker complexes on level ground at Indian Creek, Boca Raton and Shinnecock Hills.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wayne,

Cool sketches. Thanks for posting them. (Are they Flynn's drawings, as I presume? Or did he have a draftsman?)

Looking at these though, I immediately thought about how great holes rarely look even close to as good in 2-D, on paper, as they are in 4-D, in real life.

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

Some of the drawings were done by a draftsman and many by Flynn.  Most of the presentation drawings were done on linen and drawn in India Ink.  Examples of the draftsman's work include the Indian Creek (5th drawing, hole #3) and Merion East hole #1.

[Jeff_Mingay]

They're beautiful pieces of art, aren't they, Wayne. You're fortunate to have such a treasure chest of Flynn sketches/plans.

Hope all's well.

[Mike_Young]

Wayne,
These types of drawings will not help my new organization  MIMS   www.makeitmodernstupid.org  
I need much more detail...just wait till i get hold of one of these places....

[wsmorrison]

Hey, Mike.  Long time no talk to, I'll give you a call this week. 

No worries on this negatively impacting your MIMS Society.  Two expert researchers from Ohio and California don't believe that Flynn was really an architect.  So none of these holes ever got built.  It was all a ruse to steal the limelight from Charles Blair Macdonald.

CBM interview with British Golf Monthly, circa 1915

CBM:  ...Well that's my life story and how I influenced every golf course in America.  But enough about me, what do you think of me?

 

[David Stamm]

  He did not go in for the overly dramatic like MacKenzie, who I think overbunkered his courses and over-framed his greens (I'm in a very small minority here).     His personality lent itself to the restraint he showed in using nature as much as possible and mimicking nature where he did intervene.  He was not of the MacKenzie and Tillinghast school of "Look at me and what I can do"    

 

Okay Wayno, did you think I would over look this?


Overly dramatic? How so? (and yes, you are in the minority. )

[Dan Herrmann]

David - Before Wayne gives his expert opinion, let me throw in my 1 cent...  Looking at a Flynn green complex is a bit like looking at a green had nature (weathering, erosion, etc) designed it.  They just seem to fit into the surrounding land so well.  And they're pretty too.

[David Stamm]

David - Before Wayne gives his expert opinion, let me throw in my 1 cent...  Looking at a Flynn green is a bit like looking at a green had nature (weathering, erosion, etc) designed it.  They just seem to fit into the surrounding land so well.  And they're pretty too.

I'm sure they do, but I thought we were talking bunkers.

[Paul_Turner]

We need some old photos.

[John Mayhugh]

He was a brilliant practitioner of bunkers and all aspects of golf design.  Any attempt to simplify his talent in this and other regards is misplaced. 

Didn't he also part the waters of the Peconic Bay and turn water into wine?

I haven't played any Flynn courses, so I really could not criticize his work.  Still, I believe his most famous one is clearly one of the best in the world.  Obviously this architect was hugely talented.  But when you get into the top tier of architects (modern or ODG), personal tastes also come into play. This is evidenced by your negativity towards CBM/Raynor.  I couldn't honestly say that I prefer CBM's courses to Flynn's.  I just don't believe that a GCA fan has to choose sides.  Liking CBM or Raynor is not an affront to Flynn.

[Rich Goodale]

Those who decry "saucer shaped" bunkers should look at aerials of the great links courses.  Lots of saucers there when you look at the course in two dimensions, but most of those are far from uninteresting if and when you encounter them at ground level, in three dimensions.

[Sean_A]

Wayne

I don't think Old Town originally had saucer bunkers.  Dunlop posted pix of more shaped bunkers, almost like waste areas, and seems to think they need to be restored. 

While I am no Flynn expert, my issue with the bunkering I encountered at Rolling Green wasn't the look, it was the consistency of the placement.  There are an awful lot of holes with greenside bunkering left and right - from memory there were 14, maybe 15.  Personally, for such a hilly site, I don't think the course needs that much bunkering.  As you said about Tilly, the bunkers mask the dynamic terrain.  But then, looking at pix of other Flynn courses, bunkering seems to have been some sort of obsession for the guy! 

PS  Yes, the last comment was meant to wind you up - Wayne.

Ciao 

[wsmorrison]

Rich,

To me, the brilliance of saucer bunkers on links courses is how the surrounds integrate with the smaller sand area and feed into them and in most cases, their placement. 

Sean,

I wanted to post some drawings of Flynn holes where he used zero bunkers or very few on dynamic sites such as Eagles Mere.  Unfortunately, without knowing the topography, it wouldn't show anything in 2D.   He only used 21 bunkers on that course and consistently used few bunkers where "gravity golf" would do to dictate strategy.  As for repetitiveness at Rolling Green, his bunkering of the par 3s consisted of multiple bunkers on one side below green level and a single bunker on one side at green level. 

John,

While I do criticize the look of Raynor and Banks courses and a few Macdonald courses other than NGLA, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy their shot values and playability, especially for Macdonald.  It is clear to me that their courses do not stand up to the test of time as well.  Maybe Macdonald didn't care all that much.  I think he, and particularly Raynor and Banks lacked the foresight that other architects demonstrated.  I do criticize Raynor and Banks for their narrowly defined work and how closely they followed their mentor.  A reliance on templates is to me a lack of creativity and respect for the ground and letting nature in the equation.  CC Charleston and Fox Chapel are examples of this.  Those that claim brilliance in routing, other than Donnie Beck at Fisher's Island and the architects that contribute on this site, are merely guessing.

David,

I need to gather my thoughts on the MacKenzie issue.  I'll get to it.  Redundancy, framing of greens with mounds (artificial and green sites in natural bowls) and an inability to hold up over time are surely components of my critique of MacKenzie.  However, given his method of operation, it is hard to determine what is MacKenzie and what results from his local crews.

[Chris_Clouser]

Wayne,

Maxwell did not originally design saucer shaped bunkers.  That is just the shape that many of the ones at Southern Hills took on over the years and thus is what many incorrectly think was a facet of his design style.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
I have to say the bunkers in these drawing have a very similar look to them. I'm little surprised you didn't include any with the naturalize expanses of sand, like those at Shinnecock or Boca Raton. Did Flynn not illustrate those sandy areas in his formal plans? The other contrasting example would be early photos of Cascade which had a Macdonaldesque look.

[wsmorrison]

Chris,

Thanks for clearing that up.  Not really knowing a lot about the history of Southern Hills and Old Town Club, I wasn't sure if they were of a style or resulted in maintenance practices over the years.  Has there been a discussion to return them to their former forms?

Tom MacWood,

Your opinion of these bunkers as being similar does not at all take into account the topography on which they sit.  From your desk in Ohio, I'm sure everything looks similar.  The floors of the bunkers move in different directions depending upon site specific ground movement.  In any case, I don't think they have a similar look on paper and especially on the ground.  If you consider a similarity of design style a negative, what do you think of linear/geometric shapes with flat bottoms? 

As for your surprise that I didn't include any with undulating expanses of sand, I did.  Check out Indian Creek.  If you tell Creek Club where they can find that aerial you allege is 1923 or 1924, I'll be happy to post more drawings for you.  Until you share more of what you have--with the clubs that extended you courtesies, I think it is a bit ill-advised for you to tell me I should post more.  By the way, of course Flynn illustrated (with some versions inked by a draftsman) the sandy areas in the formal plans.  Perhaps you should try looking at them. 

Now as to your suggestion that early photos of Cascades had a Macdonald-like look, I believe you are mistaken.  Pictures can be deceiving and those bunkers changed quite a bit over the years.  They are now much closer to the original final plans.  If you are talking about the look while Flynn was alive, you might make that claim of the bunkering on the 11th hole, but I would say you are referring to a more recent look and are not familiar with the original look.  But keep looking for that ubiquitous Macdonald influence.  It is out there.

[Lester George]

Wayne,

You have no idea how long and hard I have argued with people about saucer shapes and their originality.  I am glad you posted the CCV drawing as that is one club that took some serious convincing. 

The purest original saucer shapes I have ever seen (pictures) were the ones designed (?) by Robert Bruce Harris at Country Club of Florida.  If I knew how to post a picture I would show you some real saucers. Good topic.

Lester

[D_Malley]

The drawing for Merion West #3 looks fantastic, but the only bunkers i remember on that hole are the greenside bunkers.  where the two sets of fairway bunkers ever built? 

[D_Malley]

also are there other hole drawings for merion west that include bunkers that are currently not there?

[Tim Nugent]

Lester, I'm sure those saucer (or moon craters) were the design.  RBH designed his bunkers with high circular edges so a tractor pulling a gangmower could mow everything.  (and those tractors didn't even have power steering).  Without Opening Day pictures, it's ahrd to imagine that "original bunkers" are still in existance - except maybe those RBH and Pete Dye bunkers that havsand lines already smoothed out.  Luckily, some purest supers have turned to string strimmers rather than a spade, to trim the grass edges.  Personally, I think that starting with much deeper edges (10-12") helps to keep the edges where they should be but too much sand at the lip renders a whole other set of palyability issues.  Maybe the use of the new bunker liner material will help.

[wsmorrison]

D Malley,

The hole was never redesigned that way.  However, maybe someday, it wouldn't be difficult or expensive and I do think it would be a significant improvement.

That is the only known drawing of the West Course.  I'm not sure when it was done, though I'll study the grid paper and go through the collection to see when it matches up with other like paper.

Lester,

I owe you a phone call and will do so shortly.  You've seen the remaining hole drawings for CCVA, right?  I'll be down there next month, perhaps we can get together.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Wayne,

Intersting that the topo on the No. 1 E at Merion doesn't show the original Alps 10th green.  Wouldn't it show that if this was the drawing to remodel 1 as a result on the decision not to cross Ardmore Ave?  Or was that blown out in 1916 and this is a later drawing showing ammendments to the bunkers only?

Thanks in advance and here's hoping I don't open another Merion thread/worm can with a simple question......a guy can dream, can't he?

Chris,

I was under the impression that Maxwell underwent a big design style change as a result of the depression.  He started out copying NGLA, but then morphed to something with less bunkers that were easier to maintain.  I should probably just go back and read my copy of your book, but...

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