Colt & Mackenzie together at Prestbury & Upton

[Neil_Crafter]

I have just found a clipping from the Manchester Guardian of October 21, 1920 which indicates that Colt and Mackenzie collaborated on the design of the course for the new Prestbury and Upton GC in Cheshire (now Prestbury GC).

It says, "Mr. H. S. Colt, who, with Dr. Mackenzie, is responsible for the design...."

Prestbury is regarded as a Colt only course with some assistance from John Morrison, at least that's what Hawtree's Colt & Co and Cornish & Whitten have to say about it. Club website lists it solely as a Colt design. Here though, appears to be good evidence that Mackenzie assisted his senior partner Colt in the design of this course. I think this sheds a few more photons of light into the rather mysterious partnership activities of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison from this time. Interested to hear any further views.

Also adds another course to Mac's resume

cheers Neil

[Sean_A]

I have just found a clipping from the Manchester Guardian of October 21, 1920 which indicates that Colt and Mackenzie collaborated on the design of the course for the new Prestbury and Upton GC in Cheshire (now Prestbury GC).

It says, "Mr. H. S. Colt, who, with Dr. Mackenzie, is responsible for the design...."

Prestbury is regarded as a Colt only course with some assistance from John Morrison, at least that's what Hawtree's Colt & Co and Cornish & Whitten have to say about it. Club website lists it solely as a Colt design. Here though, appears to be good evidence that Mackenzie assisted his senior partner Colt in the design of this course. I think this sheds a few more photons of light into the rather mysterious partnership activities of Colt, Mackenzie and Alison from this time. Interested to hear any further views.

Also adds another course to Mac's resume

cheers Neil

Neil

Or is this a case of Dr Mac was a partner/associate of Colt so therefore he earns credit regardless?  This article, while interesting, is not really proof of much. 

Ciao

[Philip Gawith]

I am sure Mark will be able to set us straight on this one!

[Neil_Crafter]

Sean
I take your point but if that was the case, then why doesn't it mention Alison who was just as much a partner as Mackenzie? If Mackenzie was not involved or never visited why would he be specifically mentioned? I don't think it can be dismissed so readily.

Philip, yes, will be interesting to see what Mark R has to say.

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
From what I've seen of Prestbury it had some very bold bunkering.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Neil, I don't know anything about Mac's involvement. One way and another Mac was involved in quite a few nearby Cheshire courses, Hazel Grove, Didsbury, Reddish Vale, and (in Derbyshire, but near enough) Cavendish. He also worked on Prenton in the Wirral and he had worked on Bramall Park, subsequently made easier.

Prestbury is a fine course and would well repay a visit. There is plenty of movement in the land and many tee and green sites have been ideally chosen. It is a very good test of approach work. When I was writing a book about Cheshire courses some years ago, the course manager told me that Prestbury was first built without fully-constructed greens or bunkers and that Colt returned a few years later to complete that job, but I have never seen that story other than it my book, so it may be very wrong!

Paul Turner has posted on this site some excellent pictures of Prestbury with its early bunkering. The 5th was quite a spectacular sandy hole but what was formerly a vast sand dune is now tree-clad.   

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Neil, I shall be driving close by Prestbury tomorrow on my way from a meeting. I'll print off the newspaper cutting and see if I can get any response. Mark.

[Sean_A]

Sean
I take your point but if that was the case, then why doesn't it mention Alison who was just as much a partner as Mackenzie? If Mackenzie was not involved or never visited why would he be specifically mentioned? I don't think it can be dismissed so readily.

Philip, yes, will be interesting to see what Mark R has to say.

Neil

On the contrary, I don't dismiss this article.  Its just a bit suspect at the moment!

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

I wouldn't be surprised if Mackenzie helped Colt here.  It's in the north of England and at the start of their partnership. (Although no mention of him in the club history.)

Some of Colt's personal photos of Prestbury came up for auction recently-his handwriting labeling each hole. Here's the par 5 9th:





I really want to see this course...definitely looks to be one of the hidden gems of England.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The 9th is a par 4 these days, quite a brute.

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark
That would be great if you could drop into the club and show them the cutting. Perhaps it will be like Crowborough Beacon, they didn't know they had Mackenzie material lying deep in their archives until I gave them the clue about Mackenzie written in their handbook by Darwin. Not saying they will find any at Prestbury, but at least the cutting might stimulate them to look again.

Paul, nice photos - any idea of their date? In Colt & Co p 126 there is a photo of the 5th green at Prestbury known as the Cliffs of Dover which he labels as being remodelled by John Morrison in 1926. That bunkering looks quite different to the bunkering of Colt's photo of the 9th. I wonder why greens would need to be remodelled only 6 years after the course was opened? Perhaps Mark the info you got about the club only building basic greens in 1920 is correct. The Alison/Morrison letters indicate that Morrison was still giving the club advice in 1949.

[Paul_Turner]

These photos are from before the course was opened, they were Colt's way of recording the course.  So they were likely from 1921.  Many of the greens are shown in this set and they are fully fleshed out....so I don't think just basic greens were built originally and then completed later over a number of years.  The course was constructed by his usual crew "Franks Harris Bros" and that wasn't their usual method.

According to the club history most of the greens were relaid (not remodelled) in 1929 because of soil issues.

The 5th "White Cliffs" bunkers on the top bank were definitely added later, the bunkers are not present in this set of Colt's own photos.  So it's probably true that Morrison did this in 1926.

[Neil_Crafter]

Paul
I had seen those photos for auction but had no idea at the time of a possible Mackenzie involvement. Interestingly the bunkering seems quite diverse in the 1920 photos (the auction house dated them as 1920) of the course, some look more Colt than others while some you could discern a possible Mackenzie-esque flavour.
cheers Neil

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The Torkington course mentioned here is Stockport, laid out by Sandy Herd. http://www.stockportgolf.co.uk/download_brochure.html

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks for the info about Torkington Mark.

here's a few more of the 1920 photos, the one of No7 has a different feel to the other bunkers I think - or is it just my imagination?

[Sean_A]

Thanks for the info about Torkington Mark.

here's a few more of the 1920 photos, the one of No7 has a different feel to the other bunkers I think - or is it just my imagination?

Its no so different from the left bunker on #9. 

Is it me, or does the 7th green look very square? 

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean, The 7th is moderately rectangular - have a look on Google Earth or similar, it's the green immediately south-west of the clubhouse.

[Bill_McBride]

Neil, I don't know anything about Mac's involvement. One way and another Mac was involved in quite a few nearby Cheshire courses, Hazel Grove, Didsbury, Reddish Vale, and (in Derbyshire, but near enough) Cavendish. He also worked on Prenton in the Wirral and he had worked on Bramall Park, subsequently made easier.

"Prenton in the Wirral........." 

I'd like to have seen that when we were are Hoylake in 2006, Mark.  Is it close to Hoylake or Wallasey?  Still active?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Bill,

Hi! Yes, Prenton is very much still active. http://www.prentongolfclub.co.uk/

It's a parkland course with a touch of heathland to it. Not all of the Doc's work survives, but there are some fine holes and I particularly like the run down from the 3rd to the 6th at the bottom end of the course. The 4th is a wicked dog-leg crossing a Roman road (and a stream) and the 5th has a wonderfully old-fashioned period piece of a sunken green. It's close to the M53, but you can't really see the course from it. You have to make the effort to go there.

If you do return to the Wirral I'd commend Wirral Ladies' - a very good little course - and the estuarine holes at Caldy and at Heswall are good. Bromborough is a good test without being enormously memorable.

Best wishes,

Mark.

[Neil_Crafter]

Ok, I've found a few additional articles in the Guardian that hopefully shed a little more light on the construction process at Prestbury.

The first is an announcement on May 6 1920 that "an ambitious scheme for a new golf club in Cheshire is making rapid progress.....Mr H. S. Colt has inspected the land and his report is most favourable." No mention of Mackenzie at this time.

Then comes the October 21 1920 article included at the start of the thread which does mention Mackenzie assisting Colt.

In the October 3 1922 issue they report on progress with "the new Prestbury Links........the holes were planned by Mr H. S. Colt, whose work probably gives more pleasure to players than that of any other British links architect." Again no mention of Mackenzie.

By November 23 1922 the course hosted a professionals vs Amateurs match and the report concludes with "When the fifty odd additional bunkers, recommended by Mr. H. S. Colt, have been added the links will be second to none of the inland greens in the North of England." So it would appear that reports that the course was not fully 'completed' when it was opened - here it is reported that Colt will be adding some fifty bunkers which suggests that not many were built when the course was first opened. I wonder why?

Then, by January 30 1923 a report on an interesting test for 4 selected professionals who were picked from the 60 who had applied for the new post of professional at Prestbury. A playing test so to speak. The guy who came second won the job! The report states that, "The course was in excellent condition. Already, many of the hazards, designed by Mr. H. S. Colt, the architect, have been arranged, and the players dropped numerous strokes on the greens, which were fast and tricky." Once more, no mention of Mackenzie.

From these reports there is only one mention of Mackenzie and so it would appear that the likely scenario is that Mackenzie may have undertaken one or two inspections to help out his partner but the lion's share of the credit should go with Colt naturally.

[Thomas MacWood]

Ok, I've found a few additional articles in the Guardian that hopefully shed a little more light on the construction process at Prestbury.

The first is an announcement on May 6 1920 that "an ambitious scheme for a new golf club in Cheshire is making rapid progress.....Mr H. S. Colt has inspected the land and his report is most favourable." No mention of Mackenzie at this time.

Then comes the October 21 1920 article included at the start of the thread which does mention Mackenzie assisting Colt.

In the October 3 1922 issue they report on progress with "the new Prestbury Links........the holes were planned by Mr H. S. Colt, whose work probably gives more pleasure to players than that of any other British links architect." Again no mention of Mackenzie.

By November 23 1922 the course hosted a professionals vs Amateurs match and the report concludes with "When the fifty odd additional bunkers, recommended by Mr. H. S. Colt, have been added the links will be second to none of the inland greens in the North of England." So it would appear that reports that the course was not fully 'completed' when it was opened - here it is reported that Colt will be adding some fifty bunkers which suggests that not many were built when the course was first opened. I wonder why?

Then, by January 30 1923 a report on an interesting test for 4 selected professionals who were picked from the 60 who had applied for the new post of professional at Prestbury. A playing test so to speak. The guy who came second won the job! The report states that, "The course was in excellent condition. Already, many of the hazards, designed by Mr. H. S. Colt, the architect, have been arranged, and the players dropped numerous strokes on the greens, which were fast and tricky." Once more, no mention of Mackenzie.

From these reports there is only one mention of Mackenzie and so it would appear that the likely scenario is that Mackenzie may have undertaken one or two inspections to help out his partner but the lion's share of the credit should go with Colt naturally.

Neil
I would agree with your take, definitely a Colt course.

On the bunker question I'm wondering if Colt went through heavy bunker stage in the early 20s. I believe Tandridge had some ungodly number and know his redesign of Muirfield & Lytham were both heavily bunkered.