Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek - Flip the 9s?

[Rob Rigg]

I played Ghost Creek today for the first time in a while. We teed off on 10 and finished on 9.

I thought the front nine was much more interesting with a lot less up and back and more variation between the holes.

IMO the front nine, with 4 through 9 all interesting/challenging holes (and generally away from the others holes on the course) would be a better finishing run.

Am I missing something (which is certainly possible)?

I understand GC was "built for championship golf" and will host the Safeway next year.

Sidenote - Ironically, I enjoyed GC much more than the "North" course at the Reserve (another Cupp design). Is the "South" course at the Reserve a better track?

This is not a comment on the course conditions at the Reserve which were excellent, probably due to all the Orange Oompa-lumpa maintenance people on it while my group was playing twilight from 3pm to 7pm on a Friday. You get what you pay for.

[Pete_Pittock]

If you are talking spectator tournaments at Ghost Creek it would be a logistical nightmare to switch the nines. Very limited space for any grandstands.

You can't really compare Cupp's work at the two courses. Ghost Creek is supposed to be a championship course. At the Reserve the South ( Fought) course is the championship course and Cupp was detailed to build a starkly contrasted course.

[Rob Rigg]

That is a great point on the spectator element which brings back the discussion of what it means to be a "Championship" course.

eg) Do these requirements place significant limitations on maximizing the layout an architect can choose to use in design?

To rephrase - From the standpoint of enjoying the course and finishing the round with the strongest and most dynamic series of holes possible, should the 9s should be flipped for everyday play?

[John Kirk]

I'm a member at Pumpkin Ridge.  They often flip the nines for daily play because they found the average round takes 10-15 minutes less when playing the back nine first.  Strange, but true.

Although the front nine is clearly longer, tougher and better looking, I strongly believe the nines are in the correct order.

1)  I like the idea of "charging" on the back nine towards a good score.  There are a few more birdie opportunities on the back.

2)  Everybody agrees the front nine is better, but some of us believe the back nine at Ghost Creek is quite underrated, with its par 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5 finishing stretch.

3)  Hole #9 is my least favorite hole on the course, where the best play off the tee is over the containment mounding onto the 1st fairway.  The safe second shot is out at the first tee, and occasionally hits the cart path and bounds into trouble.  This is a very difficult and often demoralizing hole where the trouble is all contrived, man-made hazards.  Hole #18, though also possessing a large pond to defend the green, is a much better finishing hole.

4)  Hole #10 is a terrible starting hole.  A pulled drive can easily be lost in the long grass.  The hole is 474- 492, a very short par 5, so it makes sense to be warmed up for two long, straight shots here.  In fact, the stretch 8-9-10 are all par 4.5 holes, and you should be loose and ready for these.

5)  We hosted the Nike (now Nationwide) Tour Championship in 1993 and 1994.  They were superb events, with exciting finishes.  The spectator viewing is excellent on the back nine.  The Safeway should work well at Ghost Creek.  It was originally referred to as the Tournament Course, where Witch Hollow was the Member Course.  I consider the two courses to be approximately equal, but many of us at the club consider Ghost Creek a better challenge for the best players.

So I disagree.  Like her just the way she is.

[Rob Rigg]

John,

I have "read" on the 'net that WH is a "better" course whatever that means, but you said they were "equal" with GC a superior challenge for the better player.

What are the key differences between the courses?

I am considering joining PR next year as the initiation is very competitive right now.

Do you enjoy the courses? Seems like two great layouts?

[John Kirk]

Well, I'm biased, but I think the two Pumpkin Ridge courses are the two best in the Portland metropolitan area.  I've been a member there for 16 years, so I must enjoy them.  They are very good courses in a beautiful setting.  There are some shortcomings when you compare them to some of the great courses we regularly discuss here, but they offer a balanced test of skill with a moderate amount of strategic interest.  Furthermore, the club has a friendly and informal atmosphere, with an active membership.  Nice place.

The big differences between the courses are:

1)  Ghost Creek has more holes with inbetween distances, long par 3s and 4s, short 4s and long 5s.

2)  Witch Hollow is better maintained with a more intimate and private feel.  Also, the membership is pretty good at playing Witch Hollow quickly, so 4 hour rounds there are not uncommon, especially mid-morning.

It's a great deal in my opinion.

[John Handley]

Rob-

I have been a member at Pumpkin Ridge for 8 years and I live in San Francisco!  I absolutely love it there.  I mostly play Witch Hollow but I enjoying playing Ghost Creek as well.  I think Ghost plays easier (at least for me) but it is still very challenging.  WH plays quicker and is maintained better.  IMO, Witch is an A and Ghost is an A-. 

[JohnV]

As a member from 1992 to 2002, I will put my 2 cents in.

I still think that the front 9 at Ghost Creek is the best 9 out there, but I like Witch Hollow better overall.  For tournament play, I agree with John that the current order works better.   There can be a lot of excitement on the last few holes on the back.  I hope the LPGA Tour moves the tees up on 17 on Sunday to where some players might be able to take a shot at the green.

One of our regular golfing buddies hates that they start everyone on 10 on the weekends because the best birdie hole of the day is now your first hole and if you par or bogey it, you can get a little down.  Play is about 30 minutes quicker when they start on 10 than 1 though so they use it all the time.  I think this is because there is less trouble on the back 9 so people get off to a better start.  By the time they get to the front they are warmed up a bit.

I don't hate 9 as much as John does, but is probably because I won some money from him the last time we played and he made a 7 there to finish his round.   I do remember David Duval making a triple bogey on it during the final round of the Nike Tour Championship the year he won.