[archie_struthers]

  


I'm from the God awful bent these days....although a practical necessity they just kind of turn me off !!!  Economics drives the engine to a great extent on this one, as people who shoot bad scores just don't want to play anymore...hence ...allowances must be made in design to accomodate the speed of play and difficulty issues that seem more important today than ever before....

[Cliff Hamm]

I think multiple tees are great.  It allows one to play the appropriate tee for their game.  Of course, that assumes one plays the appropriate tee.

When I learned the game, long ago, there were three tees, red - white - blue.
I continue to be amazed that many golfers play by color rather than by yardage.  I notice courses set the whites at 5900 or so and most males play those.  Great idea as it speeds play.

The institution of senior tees is a great idea.  Unfortunately, i seldom see them used.  They are ideal for juniors, women who are better than average and seniors who no longer can hit it that long.   One many not like the aesthetics but it is one way of increasing the enjoyment of the game for various ability levels.

[jeffwarne]

God awful

Most people who want more tees want them so all those "other people" will move up and make their day more palatable. No reason people can't mix forward tees with others to create their own course.

Let's simplify the game


and by the way, Tiger Woods is unlikely to ever play your course

[Dan Herrmann]

Archie - Godsend.

I was playing behind a twosome today.  Guests (their course is under construction), and we're happy to have them. 

We have 4 tees - Red (shortest), White, Blue, Gold (longest).  He played the first two holes from the blues and, to his credit, switched to the whites after he was having all sorts of problems.

And let's be real.  Unless you're Pine Valley, you need a shorter set of tees for many female recreational golfers.

[jeffwarne]

Dan -at a course with three tees, you wouldn't have had to wait for them to switch.
they would've simply played the whites right away.
and your tee budget is 25% higher with 4 sets

[John Moore II]

It all depends on the course. If your course is 7200 yards long from the back tees, you have to have at least 4 sets, unless you want 1000 yards between sets. I would think the "ladies" tee needs to be around 5200 yards MAX. So with 4 sets, you are looking at something like 5200-5800-6400-7200, and that looks odd. If you only have 3, now you have 5200-6200-7200 and that looks VERY, VERY ODD. The longer courses get, the more tees they MUST have in order to make the course playable for all customers. Now, if the course is 6500 from the back tees, its a different idea. 5200-6000-6500 is fine. But if people continue to insist on terribly long courses, you will continue to see 4, 5, 6 maybe even 7 sets of tees. (I have never seen 7 sets, but I think I have seen 6, and 5 is almost normal these days)

[Sean_A]

It depends on why the tees were created.  If alternative tees are used to create a variety of angles than its a Godsend.  Width in tees has to be one of the most underused design techniques.  However, if tees are used to create a course that is meant to accomodate all players from a length standpoint, say ranging from 5200 to 7200 yards, they tend to be God awful.  I think its better to pull an Addington or Swinley by crunching par down to sub 70 for say a 6200 yard course and create some forward tees of interest.  Even then, many of the tees should offer different angles so they entice all folks to play them.   Some ask, what about the proper flat bellies?  I say go play a TPC course or a chanmpionship if you aren't happy with a crafty par 68/69 course that is ~6200 yards long.  Trying to accomodate length in this manner on most courses isn't worth the cash.

Ciao

[Ian_L]

No reason people can't mix forward tees with others to create their own course.

Unless they want a handicap.


A course I often play has 5 sets of tees, which I think is great.  There are two that pretty much only ladies use (5000 and 5500 yards).  Then there are 6000, 6500, 7000 (approx.) yard tees.  I'm a 13-handicapper, and I find the 6000 yard tees are a bit short for me, I can clear lots of the hazards I should be avoiding.  But the 7000 yard tees would make for a miserable day (especially in 30-40 mph winds).  So I'm glad to have several options.

[Mark_Fine]

Tough subject Archie.  Golfers can be diametrically opposed on this one.  How would you like to play Oakmont when the only set of markers they have out is at 7700 yards    Most people wouldn't have the time or patience to play golf watching groups in front of them back up on holes and making 11's and 12's (before picking up).  Tees are what you make of them.  Forrest and I just did a master plan for a course and proposed a tee on every one of the 18 holes that allowed the course to also play as an 18 hole par three course.  Those could end up being "formal" tees that we construct, or just pegs in the ground but there will be thought put into the other architectural changes knowing where those locations happen to be.  I think it will be fun!  Just one example of multiple tees.

[Ronald Montesano]

Jeff, Archie, John...wow.  You guys live alone?  Don't know any kids?  Got no senior friends?  Women in your life don't play?  Heard of golf beginners?  I thought the thread was a joke when I first saw it.  Alice Dye convinced Pete to change the way he addressed course design...good thing she was around for him.  Likewise, a new course in western New York by GCA's Scott Witter stretches to 6700 yards and could use a 7000 yard set of decks.  Multiple tees get a thumbs-up from me.  Just ask anyone who has played Augusta National how they feel about going long or short, but nowhere in between.

[jeffwarne]

Ronald
I knew there was a reason no one wanted to play Augusta anymore

Beginners and juniors can't play the forward tees?

Ian-you can get a rating from a mixed set of tees -say a white /blue mix=your rating association will provide it
or God forbid you simply average the ratings of the two tees and posted it as an away course.

Show some imagination-tee it up the beginning of the fairway.

At some point the maintenance nightmare and eyesores of multiple tees and 4400-8000 yard courses with 8 tees (all with ballwashers, water coolers and trash cans)needs to end.
and lose the elevated tees as well

[Ronald Montesano]

Nice try but you won't hook this bass.

Four sets of tees minimum and maximum.  Love the courses with one set of tees a whole two paces ahead of another.

Love (truthfully) the idea of mixed tees.  I play the tips out of a sense of masochism and can handle them at 77-85 on most courses.  When I'm with friends (barely plural) I often mix.

I coach a girls HS team in the Spring and a boys HS team in the Fall.  I see the gamut and respect all designers who create four playable sets of tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

 


I'm from the God awful bent these days....although a practical necessity they just kind of turn me off !!! 

Economics drives the engine to a great extent on this one, as people who shoot bad scores just don't want to play anymore...hence ...allowances must be made in design to accomodate the speed of play and difficulty issues that seem more important today than ever before....

Archie,

I agree.

My "bunker" thread was meant to focus on the "accomodation" factor in golf course architecture today.

I've noticed another accomodation.

At a course that I'm very familiar with there are five sets of tees.

However, without exception, almost every tee marker is positioned forward on any given day.

Thus, the back tees, the blue tees play a little longer than the red tees and the red tees play a little longer than the white tees, which play a little longer than the yellow tees which play a little longer than the green tees.

Each course is substantively shorter than the card reads.

What these golfers don't understand is that when they post their scores, they're doing so from a set of tees that results in a lower handicap

The blues are 7,200+, the Reds about 6,800, the whites about 6,400.
So someone playing from the Reds is really playing from the whites and posting a score that's NOT indicative of their play from the Reds, resulting in a lower handicap.

When they play against golfers with "solid" handicaps, they get their clock cleaned.

But, as you state, golfers want to score well and this is an insidious method for accomodating that desire.

Part of the culprit is "par".

When you consider that golf used to be played by teeing your ball up within one club length of the hole previously holed out on, and that it took close to a century to revise that rule to allow golfers to tee their ball up within TWO club lengths of the hole previously holed out on, you begin to see how different golf was from today's head set.

I think multiple tees are a concession to the "me" generation.

And, unfortunately, I think they're here to stay.

Unfortunately, you'll have to pay, as will your customers, to maintain them.

[John Moore II]

Jeff, Archie, John...wow.  You guys live alone?  Don't know any kids?  Got no senior friends?  Women in your life don't play?  Heard of golf beginners?  I thought the thread was a joke when I first saw it.  Alice Dye convinced Pete to change the way he addressed course design...good thing she was around for him.  Likewise, a new course in western New York by GCA's Scott Witter stretches to 6700 yards and could use a 7000 yard set of decks.  Multiple tees get a thumbs-up from me.  Just ask anyone who has played Augusta National how they feel about going long or short, but nowhere in between.

Ronald--Not sure why you are referring to me...I said that having multiple tees depends on how long you want the course. If the longest tees are only 6000 yards, you may not need many sets. Let me think: Pinehurst #3 has 2 sets 5800-5200 yds. Pinehurst #1 has 3 sets 6200-5800-5200 yds. #7 has 5 at 7200-6700-6200-5800-5200. Now don't kill me if I got those a bit wrong, I don't feel like going to the Pinehurst website to look them up for sure, but they are not far off. #3 does not need 5 sets of tees, #7 does. The number of sets depends on how long the course is from the longest set.

[Andy Troeger]

One thing I've seen at a few courses is a combo set--tees that are on the scorecard as a combination of other sets of tees. Its especially nice for places with a 7200 yard set and a 6400 yard set. Pick 9 from each set, combine them, and you've got 6800 yards without any real extra expense/effort (other than printing scorecards).

Nice, simple, easy, I like it!

[John Moore II]

At Mid South, we didn't even print scorecards for mixed sets. Just had a table published with what combinations we had rated and which holes to play which tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

The course I referenced also has a red-white combo, thus making six sets of courses you can play.

It's absurd......... and costly.

[John Moore II]

Yeah, I think at Mid South we could have 8 or 9 different sets, including combo's. Crazy.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
It certainly seems like the situation you measure goes over the top. It would seem that for most courses, you could have three sets of tees, do the combos to give 4-5 options, and do so pretty reasonably.

Make the sets on average 7000, 6000, 5000, and have a combo set at 6500. It seems like 5500 would be overkill.

Part of the problem seems to be courses that want tees at 7500 yards too. So few people would ever want to play those tees that they end up being wasted. There are courses (Conservatory at Hammock Beach, Promontory Nicklaus), where I would have wanted to play the third set of tees from the back--and I'm a single-digit. That's a bit ridiculous.

[jeffwarne]

Or..... you could have one set of tees and the better, stronger players would shoot lower.

What a concept

[John Moore II]

Or..... you could have one set of tees and the better, stronger players would shoot lower.

What a concept

But where do you put the one set? 5200 so the lady members/guests can play? From there the men would get flatly bored. And at 6000 you would basically run all the ladies off the course. One tee can't work.

[Mike_Cirba]

Multiple tees, like golf carts that permit routings where holes are separated by continental divides, are simply another architectural crutch.

Limit courses to two sets of tees and we'll see some different architecture.

[jeffwarne]

excellent point Mike
2-3 sets is perfect

many older courses have one tee (with 3 sets of markers), but it's only one tee.
Frankly, I see more good women players at courses like that than I see at courses that have the modern 4800 yard forward tees

I do get a kick out of players diligently insisting that we have multiple tees, and mixed sets, all with their seperate ratings(in the name of an two decimal accurate handicap),-----and then these same players pick up six footers and drop balls when lost.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I look at multiple tees a little differently than some cynics here. Its not to accomodate people who want to shoot lower scores and are weasels.....its to accomodate those people who want their golf game to be fun.

How can the same general group of people who write here constantly against the "mindless added length" (John Conley's term I believe) then come on here and criticize anyone who wants to play a golf course at reasonable length via a shorter tee? 

[Mark_Fine]

Sebonack must be terrible (at least in regard to tees) as many holes have a limitless number    The markers (if you want them) can be placed anywhere for hundreds of yards on some of the holes because there are no "formal" tees.

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