Is the 17th at Cypress a Great Hole or an Obstacle Course?

[Bob_Huntley]

We have, in the past, debated that a copse of trees in the path to a green is an abomination.  What do we think about the 17th at CPC?

Bob

[Chip Gaskins]

i am playing it in 6 days...i will let you know

[Joel_Stewart]

Its a great hole, over the top.  One of the great holes in the world.

The problem lies in the ball and equipment have ruined it.  When Tiger tried to drive it I thought the world has gone mad. 

Sandy Tatum told me the other day that someone hit it over with a 3 wood.

[David Stamm]

Bob,

   I think the trees offer an interesting and strategic feature to the hole. Should one take the short cut, a rather demanding shot is required, but a shorter approach is accomplished. And taking the safer route still must have enough distance to be clear of the trees to have an unobstructed view of the green, but the shot will be longer coming in. IMHO, I think it's a great medium length par 4 that requires alot of decision off the tee.

[Bob_Huntley]

Joel,

A couple of years ago I was out there when a young stripling on the Duke University team put it on the green from the tee.

I thought it an amazing feat yet quite disgusting.

Bob

[Mike_Cirba]

Boy, Bob...I think it's still a great hole for normal human beings!

I also think the wind on that exposed tee really makes the hole very variable as to approach, strategy, and line.

It's one of the most intimidating tee shots ever built and while the center tree grouping is a bit odd and different, it is also unique and sublimely beautiful.

[Chip Gaskins]

its the tee shots that have really changed the game, no? 

i mean hitting a 7 iron is still hitting a 7 iron even it is a few yards further back.  its the idea of standing on a tee with a 460cc driver and swinging at will versus a balata ball and persimmon drive which is so much different.

[Jim Nugent]

We have, in the past, debated that a copse of trees in the path to a green is an abomination.  What do we think about the 17th at CPC?

Bob

What do we think about the 18th at Pebble? 

[Ian_L]

And the lesser known 12th at Stanford?

[Wayne_Freedman]

Neither.

It's a golf hole with a forced carry, a tree, and a bunker.

[Michael Robin]

I wonder what Ed Dougherty would think. Bob, help me out here, but didn't Ed have a short birdie putt to a right side pin and end up with a 16 during the AT&T? Or was it a 19? I believe play was stopped after he finished the hole because they couldn't keep the balls on the greens at CPC 'cause of the wind.

[Ash Towe]

For normal players it is a great hole with numerous options and makes it makes you think about your abilities and strategy.  For young men and pros it is redundant to some extent, especially in a casual round,due to technology, the fitness of players and advances in technique.  It may still be a strategic hole for these players in a stoke play event and in match play depending on the state of the match.

Bob, I hope you are fit and well.

All the best, Ash

[Nick Pozaric]

Both times I have played it I have had no problems with the trees, so I dont have a problem with it

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

As you know, I think that 17 (and 18) are anomalies that should be cryit doon.  Maybe they were thrilling when the course was built, but now with the cypresses expressing their genes and growing out of control, both holes are in fact obstacle courses.  I would be extremely surprised if this was what Mackenzie had in mind.  The "Pebble Chain Saw Massacre" is far overdue, but will (can?--think CCC) it ever be done?

Slainte

Rich

[Adam Clayman]

As has been said the hole does require thought. A decision to be made on the tee. With the aerial assault game so prolific, even a short knocker should be able to create a shot that can get reasonably close to the green or pin position du jour.

Having now seen another Mackenzie great, and the reliance on a strategic tree or two, I would not be so fast in condemning what the good doctor envisioned.

[Rich Goodale]

I'd prefer to see a lone cypress stand sentinel in the fairway, rather than the grouping.  Other than that, I think the real abomination on the hole is the back bunker.  That would be a dynamite sky-line (in this case, ocean-line) green, but the raised back bunker ruins it by "framing" the green.

Excellent point, Dave.

Were that done, I'd call it an "infinity green."

Rich

[Kalen Braley]

I'm thinking if they pruned back the trees to their original size when the course was first made, the hole would play better. They would still need to be negotiated, but at least would be a bit more doable.

[Rick Shefchik]

If MacKenzie planted the trees -- or chose not to take them out when he built the course -- then he must have understood the impact they would have 80 years later.

If somebody else planted them later (and I'm not that familiar with the history of the hole), I think they have less right to exist, but they're still not necessarily bad for the hole.

For one thing, they make a spectacular visual on a hole that would already be spectacular without them. And they can be negotiated; a good drive down the left side of the fairway might get you past them, or at least leave you a nine-iron or wedge over them. And the fact that some long hitters find it more tempting to go right of them makes it even a tougher risk-reward hole than it would otherwise.

I'd leave 'em -- especially if MacKenzie wanted them there.

[Jeff Doerr]

I think 17 is one of the true gems in all of golf. You just can't create that kind of setting.

The tee box - How many other places in the world want to make you stop and let the next 6 groups pass through?

The tee shot - So many great options from laying back a bit so that over or around on each side are options. Challenge the short right or attempt long left. And...what's the wind doing today.

The green - A cliff in front over a crashing cove in the ocean... I don't mind the bunker in the back as it is needed for a barrier to the 18th tee.

Now on 18, I would make a few tree changes. I like 18, but would remove the first two trees next to the fairway on the left.

[Jon Spaulding]

The trees were there from the outset, and surrounded by bunkers. When, or more importantly, why they were removed I do not know.

It's one of the more inspiring tee shots ever, made less interesting by the most recent 30-50 yards of technology. For some the hole loses something, while others might gain something.

Without this distance, the clump of trees/bunkers serve a strategic purpose in that they force a distinct decision off the tee.....bold versus safe, short versus long, wind direction for approach...etc.

I agree with the comment on the rear bunker....but it was always that way and MacKenzie did what we might call a "respectable" job out there. The original bunkering scheme on 17 was more dramatic than today's version, in which case the opinion might differ. But hey.......when you put Fazio to work on a classic, one can normally expect either blatant or subtle abortions.

To answer the original question, a copse of trees with ample width is acceptable and can be a turn on. CPC #17 fits this description, as did #12 Stanford at one time.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Restore the bunkers in the fairway, reduce the trees a bit and you have a unique driving hole, that if misplayed, recovery is possible.
At present if one is blocked by the trees, recovery is not possible.

[Bob_Huntley]

Lyn,

It didn't stop you from birdieing the hole tha last time I saw you play it. It was a wonderful second shot.

Bob

[Pat Burke]

I wonder what Ed Dougherty would think. Bob, help me out here, but didn't Ed have a short birdie putt to a right side pin and end up with a 16 during the AT&T? Or was it a 19? I believe play was stopped after he finished the hole because they couldn't keep the balls on the greens at CPC 'cause of the wind.

1990 Crosby.  WInd was blowing so hard in to the tee shot that I couldn't reach the green in 2 shots!!
I managed to hit driver on the green on 16!  I was pretty impressed, until I four putted
After my first putt, I followed my ball across the green for about 12 feet trying to mark it as the wind kepy blowing it.  Called an official (who shall remain nameless...he apologized the next week) who told me to keep playing, "we don't suspend play on the TOUR for wind"  (I was a rookie btw).  Back to 17, I ran a beautiful little 7 iron from about 40 yards short for my third up to about 5 feet for par.  Missed the putt, and watched my putt blow off the front of the green.  Dougherty was two groups behind my group I think.  They suspended play about 5 minutes after I finished 18 .  Should have known then my career wouldn't amount to much

[Tony_Muldoon]

If MacKenzie planted the trees -- or chose not to take them out when he built the course -- then he must have understood the impact they would have 80 years later.

I'd leave 'em -- especially if MacKenzie wanted them there.

Rick, I can't buy that Mackenzie wouldn't have wanted them managed to preserve the challenge he selected them for.  To follow your logic when their timespan of allocated years expires we are to believe he envisioned them as horizontal challenges for the next decade?

Someone else suggested removing all but one, but with the others removed thare's  a good chance the last tree would not remain staning past the first winter.


Anyone have pictures to show the development of this?

[Jim Nugent]

1990 Crosby.  WInd was blowing so hard in to the tee shot that I couldn't reach the green in 2 shots!!
I managed to hit driver on the green on 16!  I was pretty impressed, until I four putted
After my first putt, I followed my ball across the green for about 12 feet trying to mark it as the wind kepy blowing it.  Called an official (who shall remain nameless...he apologized the next week) who told me to keep playing, "we don't suspend play on the TOUR for wind"  (I was a rookie btw).  Back to 17, I ran a beautiful little 7 iron from about 40 yards short for my third up to about 5 feet for par.  Missed the putt, and watched my putt blow off the front of the green.  Dougherty was two groups behind my group I think.  They suspended play about 5 minutes after I finished 18 .  Should have known then my career wouldn't amount to much

I found the 2002 stats for Patrick Burke on PGAtour.com.  Is that you?