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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Rogue Supt.....
« on: August 29, 2008, 08:36:31 PM »
While reading the OC Greens thread JK brings up the topic of rogue supts....and then Joel discusses the supt at OC....

Can you supts out there admit that there are a good many rouge supts?  We all need each other in this business and everyone brings something to the table we hope......but where does the supt role stop in situation such as OC? ( i know nothing of anything at OC) The supt has a difficult job w/o much recognition for efforts sometimes from unknowing members yet I have sat in some guy's offices and heard them slam the archie working on their project and how they will "fix it" when he's gone etc....
On many redo projects now you see a new supt come on board with the project just so all are on the same page...you just don't realize how lucky you are to have a good supt.  Problem is there are cases where members did not know how bad the guy was until they got a new one.....and same goes for archs....
So supts..tell me some rogue supt tales.....:D :D
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 08:38:36 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 08:45:52 PM »
I'll need to break out that nickname
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2008, 08:48:21 PM »
I'll need to break out that nickname
I like that name.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2008, 08:54:30 PM »
I'll need to break out that nickname
I like that name.....

Small industry my friend.....very small

Paper thin feelings too
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Scott Stambaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2008, 09:03:49 PM »
I'm betting you'll get zero response to this from Superintendents. 

BTW- The GCSAA has a code of ethics members must adhere to.  Throwing a fellow colleague under the bus is in there somewhere, I'm sure.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2008, 09:06:16 PM »
I doubt that there is any such thing as a club where the only guy who knows what is best for the club is the superintendent.

The best superintendents begin thier work by cultivating the relationships with those who know, and more often as not those guys are the ones who hired him in the first place. Those guys are the real heros - the guys who come to all of the committee meetings and who care about their golf course. You gotta listen to those guys because they are watching your back side and they have a history that you don't have when you are new. And ussually those guys are good players.

There is too much bashing of those guys here.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2008, 09:09:38 PM »
I'm betting you'll get zero response to this from Superintendents. 

BTW- The GCSAA has a code of ethics members must adhere to.  Throwing a fellow colleague under the bus is in there somewhere, I'm sure.

Scott,
I think that only applies to the guys that wear all those speaker ribbons on their blazers at the annual meeting.... ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2008, 09:31:46 PM »
Mike,

Those guys who wear all the speaker ribbons at the conferences are giving their time to the advancement of the game and they believe that. You got a problem with that?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2008, 09:37:50 PM »
I think I have a simplistic, non confrontational generalization regarding this:

The supers of the world are merely a cross section of society, no better or no worse than any other group. There will always be a rogue individual or more in any large group of people.

I won't point any out, however, as I may or may not have met any rogue supers.

They may or may not wear ribbons.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2008, 09:44:31 PM »
Joe,

You are so right. But those guys who you might think of as rouge are in fact very on top of things from a political reference - in thier own idiom. Would you disagree?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2008, 10:21:29 PM »
Every super knows how to get things done, either quietly or by a vote of the green committee or membership.   Most know they are not going to take something to a vote unless its going to pass.  Some have to deal with powerful presidents.  Others can't blink without approval.   Every situation is different.

Olympic is a huge bureaucratic mess.  The club has something like 8,000 members.  There are different types of memberships and many different committees.  There are no equity memberships, thus no votes by the memberships on these type issues.  Furthermore, and this is a huge problem, Olympic has a new president every year, 2 or 3 new board members - every year, 2 to 4 new green committee members - every year and a new chairman of the green committee every 4 years.  So the lack of continuity is ripe for abuse and this is the problem. 

So every year I would talk with the new president, board members and green committee members and explain we have to get rid of this architect.   People come in and the super would say, we are using Bill Love as our architect and most just shrug their shoulders.  Well WHO THE HELL is Bill Love, nobody ever asked the question and all just go with the flow.  Nobody ever rocked the boat.

Another way he worked the system was in the course of the last few years, we hosted the US Junior Am and the US Amatuer.  Now we have the US Open in 2012.   The super has used those tournaments as reasons why we needed to do the work and in many instances, said it's what the USGA wants, especially the new tees.

So I don't know if I would say he was rogue, he just works the system to the max and took advantage of the structure.  Lastly, I will say he is the nicest guy in the world, soft spoken and seemed to talk very quietly and calmly.  It's just his work stinks.

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2008, 10:34:16 PM »
Who was the first celebrity superintendent and why?


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 10:37:07 PM »
Who was the first celebrity superintendent and why?



Old Tom Morris...because he knew more than anyone else in town.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 10:38:32 PM »
Joe,

I think he was more famous for being a multiple Open Champion and architect.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2008, 10:39:51 PM »
That's probably true now, but what about back in the day? Was he famous for his work before he was famous for his play? Locally, at least?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2008, 10:48:41 PM »
Mike,

Those guys who wear all the speaker ribbons at the conferences are giving their time to the advancement of the game and they believe that. You got a problem with that?

Bradley,
I am now assuming you are a supt....correct?  I do get a kick out of all the ribbons....many are being paid..so not giving their time....
I sold to supts for almost 10 years and my father in law was a supt at gulfstream, Indian Creek and Everglades Club for over 40 years....he had about the same take I have....Associations have hurt supts as much as helped...but spts are now prettier.....and we now have a lot of politicians...I have great respect for supts based on what they can do not what they can hype.....I know (and if you are a supt you know also)  a few supts a top notch clubs that can't grow grass....but they got there thru politics.....clubs don't know what they are looking for in many cases and go for the guy that gave the best interview....I have seen these types use a particular chemical or mower or grass because they work for a prominent club and be used as a consultant or in an ad...
I don't know maybe I do have a problem with the ribbons.....give me a David Stone or one of the speakers that forgets to put the ribbons on and doesn't have to put mousse in his hair before the presentation.   Foot Joy supts make me nervous. ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2008, 10:56:38 PM »
Who was the first celebrity superintendent and why?


Paul Latshaw....but he could back it up....he got a Masters, a PGA and a US Open and would have taken a Britsish Open if he could have gotten it.....he knew his stuff and trained some good supts....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2008, 10:59:30 PM »
Mike,

The job of greenkeeping is way too hard for a phoney to survive. What do want us to wear rope belts and jeans or something to prove we are workers?

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2008, 11:04:57 PM »
Yeah Latshaw...Did he ever try to break into the architecture field like Olson has now boldly done?


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2008, 11:08:38 PM »
Mike,

The job of greenkeeping is way too hard for a phoney to survive. What do want us to wear rope belts and jeans or something to prove we are workers?
Bradley,
I never said rope belts and jeans.....it was explained to me once by a supt at one of the top ten clubs in US like this...you want a supt that enjoys being a supt...knows his role and doesn't want to be the golf pro or the politician....enjoys teaching the young guys that want to learn and can get it done....likes his maintenance building and doesn't need an office in the proshop....
OH and yes the phoneys can survive....their budgets are much higher than the competent guys for the same product... :D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2008, 06:31:08 AM »
Bradley:

I will second MY's thought that the best political superintendents are not necessarily the guys I'd want in charge of my own course.

When I was first in the business, one of the clubs we were working on fired its superintendent, essentially for watching all the greens die due to shade and disease problems.  He was to be the incoming president of the GCSAA, and there is a technicality in the rules that the President has to be a practicing superintendent, so the association scrambled to find him a job before the election.

On the other hand, I've met many excellent superintendents who have no name recognition nor standing in the association.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2008, 11:24:54 AM »
I have long forgotten names, but some of those guys who started the GCSAA and actually its predecessor organization had some pretty dedicated and well accomplished supers back in the 1920s.  I believe they used to regularly hold their conferences in the north, and I particularly remember reading about their winter meetings held in Toronto.  But, I think their early desire and initiative to elevate their association to a professional association of collegues is part of that celebrity status.

Bradley, I take it you read and were suitably offended at the infamous satire piece, "Dumb and Dumber"   ::) ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2008, 01:15:59 PM »
Who was the first celebrity superintendent and why?



I would say Joe Valentine from Merion Golf Club. The reasons can be found on this link;

http://cropsoil.psu.edu/history/turfgrass/chapter1b.cfm
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2008, 01:16:48 PM »
Had the great fortune to meet Shel Solow and play his beloved Briarwood. I had played the course in a prior life, and was more than glad to hear how long Briarwood has kept their super, and, many of their workers. Theirs is clearly a model on how to deal with, and, treat people.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rogue Supt.....
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2008, 02:15:04 PM »
Yeah Latshaw...Did he ever try to break into the architecture field like Olson has now boldly done?



I am sure if he ever decides to do so he will let it be known by placing a patch on his crowded golf shirt.  The only time I met him he was the "consultant" that only reccommended the products he had emblazoned on his shirt.....shocker
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

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