Make a difference with your recommendation

[Mark_Fine]

Some of you may be aware of the non-profit organization called Keep It Classic (KIC). Golfweek helped introduce it in a recent article.  Its mission is to:

Restore and preserve classic public and municipal golf courses in the United States and to promote traditional golf ethics to children.  The website is www.keepitclassic.org

The purpose of this post is to reach out to a knowledgeable group of people (most of whom here are very passionate about golf course architecture), especially the old classic courses.  What KIC is looking for are courses that have architectural significance, are in the most need, and with KIC’s help on improvements (KIC provides all the improvements at their own expense), could do the most good for the local community. 

There is an important meeting scheduled for next Tuesday to set annual objectives for target courses, etc.  If you have or know of a great old public or municipal golf course that would benefit from the support of this organization, please IM me or email me to discuss.  As you can imagine there are hundreds of courses to choose from and we already have a long list of prospects.  However, your specific insight and/or experience with a particular one could “make a difference”.

Thanks,
Mark

[Phil_the_Author]

Mark,

Get in touch with Bob Crosby! He's working with a group of Atlanta business people who want to see this very thing happen at the great old municipal courses in Atlanta.

[Tim Leahy]

Lincoln Park in SF could use some help staying alive. I am sure many junior golfers in SF have benefitted from that course.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

Sounds like a terrific organization.

I would nominate Indian Canyon in Spokane, WA.  Its a real gem and wouldn't take much touching up to have her really sparkling again...

So more tidbits on the place:

Indian Canyon, was designed in 1930 by H. Chandler Egan and opened for play in 1935. It has been chosen by Golf Digest as one of the top 25 public course in the United States. The course sits atop the west entrance to Spokane, overlooking the city. As the host to many major tournaments, Indian Canyon has hosted the USGA three times; the United States Amateur Public Links Championship in 1941 and 1984; and the United States Women’s Amateur Public Links Championship in 1989. Indian Canyon now hosts the Rosauers Open, the largest PGA section event in the United States. Built on a canyon wall with a vertical drop of 240 feet amid many towering pines, it offers a diverse and unique playing environment.

[DMoriarty]

Mark,

I mean no offense to you, but since you brought this up, I'll be will be straight with you.

My understanding is that Forrest Richardson is involved with this group.   I have seen his version of restoring a classic era public course, Buena Ventura, which he shamelessly marketed as "circa 1926," and I have to tell you that I am extremely skeptical.   While he seems like a great guy, Forrest was obviously trying to use the Billy Bell Sr. lineage of the course as a marketing tool to promote himself and had not a care about trying to do anything that could remotely be considered authentic Billy Bell, Sr. or "circa 1926."

So why shouldn't we consider this organization another promotional attempt by Forrest?   If an organization is really concerned with "keeping in classic" shouldn't it work with someone who has shown an ability and desire to keep it classic?    There are lots of them out there, and from what I have seen I'd put Forrest nowhere on this list. 

Again, no offense to you or the organization meant, but I'd be afraid to recommend a course for fear that Forrest would do to it what he did to Buena. 

[TEPaul]

Mr. Moriarty:

That's a good question. Maybe I'm mistaken in my understanding and completely wrong but I thought if a municipal course or whatever got involved with KIC they pretty much inherit Richardson/Fine to do the work. But maybe that's not the case and if not I can't imagine that Mark Fine wouldn't know.

Mark, let's say the Cobb's Creek project went forward and the architect was Gil Hanse, as an example. Could the Cobb's Creek Project still try to utilize KIC and what would that entail?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Why do you need more courses on the list?
How many can the group fund a year?

Cheers

[Tim Leahy]

Mark,

I mean no offense to you, but since you brought this up, I'll be will be straight with you.

My understanding is that Forrest Richardson is involved with this group.   I have seen his version of restoring a classic era public course, Buena Ventura, which he shamelessly marketed as "circa 1926," and I have to tell you that I am extremely skeptical.   While he seems like a great guy, Forrest was obviously trying to use the Billy Bell Sr. lineage of the course as a marketing tool to promote himself and had not a care about trying to do anything that could remotely be considered authentic Billy Bell, Sr. or "circa 1926."

So why shouldn't we consider this organization another promotional attempt by Forrest?   If an organization is really concerned with "keeping in classic" shouldn't it work with someone who has shown an ability and desire to keep it classic?    There are lots of them out there, and from what I have seen I'd put Forrest nowhere on this list. 

Again, no offense to you or the organization meant, but I'd be afraid to recommend a course for fear that Forrest would do to it what he did to Buena. 

I don't know if it is "classic Bill Bell" or not but I have played Olivas Park prior to the restoation and after and it is a much better course after the redo. To nit pick at the work done on a municipal course that had little or no reputation prior to the restoration is a bit off topic for this thread.

[Mike_Young]

amazing

[Mark_Fine]

I don't have too much time to respond, but here are a few quick comments:

First of all thanks to those of you who have emailed suggestions and ideas.  As some of you know who have contacted me, there is a lot more to this then just making the improvements to courses.  In some ways, that is the easy part. 

DMoriarity,
If you are not comfortable with suggestions, no problem.  Give the organization a few years, let KIC get a few projects under their belt, and then make your conclusions if we've failed or succeeded. 

Tom,
KIC will work with whom ever we deem appropriate.  One aspect of my role and Forrest's is to help with those determinations.  If a municipality says that the only way they will take KIC's support is if we hire Ben Crenshaw or XYZ architect, we will have to decide if that is the right thing to do and make a recommendation.  If it is we'll do it.  A more likely scenario might be that a large potential donor to KIC says, "I'm willing to give you $3MM to restore/improve a particular golf course, however, a particular architect or contractor must do the work.  Again, if it makes sense, we'll do it.  On KIC's first project (only planning work is done so far), we have been working with Bill Kubly and Landscapes as the contractor.  We might or might not use someone else on the next course and might even partner with other architects if it helps the success of that particular project.  The most likely situation KIC will encounter is that we will be working on courses that might close and turn into Walmarts or strip malls if we don't step in.  They are depressed and likely won't ever see the funds needed to maintain them as golf courses.  Mark Twain Golf Club could be one example of a course like this on our radar screen.  I really don't think they are going to dictate who has to do the improvements, or which company's irrigation system we need to install, etc. if KIC jumps in to save it. 

Mike N,
KIC's target is 2 or so courses a year (time will tell).  As you can imagine, we have a lot of prospects.  The reason for this post is for responses like Phil Young's.  If there is someone out there that is already trying to do this like Bob, and KIC can help in some way with what he is trying to accomplish in Atlanta, great!  If not, best of luck to them.

As for those who think this is a marketing campaign for Forrest, I suggest they contact the founder of KIC.  Dan's heart is in the right place as is his wallet and instead of giving his money to the United Way or some other charity, he is going to do something unique as he thinks he can make a difference for golf and for kids.  Give it some time before you get so negative and start looking for the positives. 

Mark

[TEPaul]

Mark:

Thanks for the answer and information. Who is KIC exactly? In other words, who are the people behind it, who started it and run it or make the decisions on its behalf?

Thanks

[Jon Spaulding]

A noble concept......but I'm having a hard time picturing the restoration of a once-fantastic municipal venue inspiring the city to teach some set of ethics to children. Speaking for CA, many of these same municipalities are incapable of teaching these same kids anything in school at a clip of 30 hours per week.......

Come to think of it, that's frightening.

If the project succeeds, I would hope that Gil/Geoff/Jim would get any work at Griffith Park or Balboa. Once their work is complete at LACC, there will be no other logical choice.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Why would a large donor give to KIC rather than the particular golf course?

[Mike_Cirba]

All,

Here is more information on Keep It Classic.

http://keepitclassic.org/


I guess my question is similar to what Tom Paul asked and I'm not sure I completely understand the answer.

If a course is designated as worthy of restoration by Mr. Bergman's very worthwhile organization, how is an architect selected?

Shouldn't that be a local decision by the owners of the course?

[Mike_Young]

All,

Here is more information on Keep It Classic.

http://keepitclassic.org/


I guess my question is similar to what Tom Paul asked and I'm not sure I completely understand the answer.

If a course is designated as worthy of restoration by Mr. Bergman's very worthwhile organization, how is an architect selected?

Shouldn't that be a local decision by the owners of the course?

sort of explained in reply #9.....
"  One aspect of my role and Forrest's is to help with those determinations.  If a municipality says that the only way they will take KIC's support is if we hire Ben Crenshaw or XYZ architect, we will have to decide if that is the right thing to do and make a recommendation.  If it is we'll do it.  A more likely scenario might be that a large potential donor to KIC says, "I'm willing to give you $3MM to restore/improve a particular golf course, however, a particular architect or contractor must do the work.  Again, if it makes sense, we'll do it.  On KIC's first project (only planning work is done so far), we have been working with Bill Kubly and Landscapes as the contractor.  "

read carefully.....
AMAZING
our unfortunate classics are fortunate

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Check out their website.  That should answer many of your questions. 

Jon,
As I said in the one post, in some ways the course improvements are the easy part.  Also, I believe the KIC website talks a little about the kids programs (or at least it will).  We have experience setting up a First Tee facility along with the programs there for the kids and we will provide guidance/training manuals, etc.  I've been on a board of an organization that does this kind of thing for the last five years.  Kid access to the courses will also be part of the deal at “very affordable” fees.

Regarding Gil Hanse; he is a real gentleman and one of the best architects out there.  Gil was one of the guys who convinced me to get into this business.  He’s been a great reference and several of the projects I am or have worked on were from his referrals.  I think he would be very supportive of my involvement in some of these projects and if it made sense to work together or for him to do something alone with KIC, great.

Mike N,
There are lots of reasons a large donor would give to KIC.  One of them is the same reason why anyone would give to any charity/non-profit vs. direct to the individual/organization that will benefit from it?  There are also tax advantages for donors because KIC is a 501 (c)(3) organization.  Another reason is because many of them know Dan.  He is extremely well connected with the kinds of individuals/companies that can and want to make these kind of donations. 

Mike C,
Would you really want the local municipality to select the architect?  Also, do you think they have the expertise to know who to pick and could they oversee the design, bidding, and construction process?  KIC wants to do this (its their money) but their staff is similar in that they know little about this area.  That is part of why Forrest and I are on the team they have assembled.  Forrest has a lot of experience working with muni/public golf courses.  I have done and will do a lot of the historical research that will be needed.   Our combined resume of courses is not too bad.  Dan found us.  We didn’t find him. 

Mike Y,
Not sure what you are getting at?  Many other architects were contacted by KIC but surprisingly (maybe you can explain why) none wanted to put in weeks and weeks of effort (gratis) like Forrest and I have done to help get the organization set up, etc.  My background as well as Forrest’s is quite broad and KIC found this helpful.  It's a great cause and these guys are serious about making it successful.  We will do the best we can.

Note:  I just received an IM with a great lead from someone on this site.  It is about an old Tom Bendelow course that has fallen on hard times and the city is threatening to shut it down.  He went on to say that if ever there was a course suited to the needs of young kids this is it. 

This is the kind of information that we are looking for and Dan and the rest of KIC will be excited to hear about it.  If it looks good, likely Forrest or I will fly out with Dan to investigate further.  I don’t think we’ll need someone from DMoriarty's short list of restoration experts to handle this one   

[DMoriarty]

I don't know if it is "classic Bill Bell" or not but I have played Olivas Park prior to the restoation and after and it is a much better course after the redo. To nit pick at the work done on a municipal course that had little or no reputation prior to the restoration is a bit off topic for this thread.

I'm glad you enjoyed Olivas Park.  My comment concerned Buena Ventura, a 6.5 million dollar renovation that Forrest has marketed as being with Billy P. Bell's work.  And I was not commenting on the quality, but rather specifically directing that Forrest used the Billy P. Bell heritage to tout his own work, even though his work there had about as much to to with Billy P. Bell as my backyard gardening does.   I don't see this as picking nits, and given that we are talking about Forrest renovating old municipals, or overseeing the renovation of old municipals, it is hard to see how it could be more on point.

DMoriarity,
If you are not comfortable with suggestions, no problem.  Give the organization a few years, let KIC get a few projects under their belt, and then make your conclusions if we've failed or succeeded. 

Given the short list of courses, I am not sure that waiting is a good idea.  There are only so many courses like Cobb's out there, and ruining one is ruining one too many.  It would be criminal for Cobb's to be handled like Buena was.

As for those who think this is a marketing campaign for Forrest, I suggest they contact the founder of KIC.  Dan's heart is in the right place as is his wallet and instead of giving his money to the United Way or some other charity, he is going to do something unique as he thinks he can make a difference for golf and for kids.  Give it some time before you get so negative and start looking for the positives. 

Mark

   

I don't doubt the sincerity of Mr. Bergman.   But shouldn't he consult someone who is really into sympathetic restorations?   And shouldn't we question his judgment in putting Forrest in charge of the architectural end of things.   What is Forrest's record with sympathetic and affordable restorations?    My only direct knowledge is with Buena, and it was was very expensive and is not like anything Billy P. Bell ever did, as far as I know.   I shudder to think of what Forrest might to to Cobb's.   Does he have any examples of sympathetic and inexpensive restorations out there?

Will you and Forrest recuse yourselves from all design work as a result of the obvious conflict of interest?   Will you have a financial interest in the projects or the program?   

By the way Mark, I don't doubt your sincerity either.   You've always been straight with me.   But if we don't worry about these old courses then who will?     I am glad you guys want to save these courses, but if you are claiming you are actually going to restore them, that that is what has to be done.   And when Forrest has claimed this in the past, it is not what he has done.

[Tim Gavrich]

Manchester CC, Manchester, CT.  It was evidently originally designed by Devereux Emmet, then reworked by Tillinghast.  I think there are probably a good amount of holes that haven't changed, but I'm pretty sure there are some that have been "modernized" for the worse.  I hope to do a thread of pictures and descriptions about MCC soon.

[Mark_Fine]

DMoriarty,
Forrest and I are part of a team and we both bring different areas of expertise.  He is an experienced and talented architect and knows what it takes to get a project completed from start to finish.  He has done it many many times!  I happen to know a little about the dead guys and their golf courses, am passionate about it and studied hundreds of their designs over many years.  If you read any of the master plans I've prepared, or listened to any of my talks/seminars, you might have a different opinion.  If anything I might be too much of a purist and push too hard for "restoration".  That was part of the reason our work at a course in the central part of the country has taken soooo long to now finally get implemented - I wanted true restoration, backed it up with literally years for detailed research, but not everyone was quite ready for that or understood how great the original golf course once was.  With Forrest, I've found together we can strike a good balance.  Our work at Mira Vista G&CC (Robert Hunter's only original design) is a good example. 

Note:  I wasn't working with Forrest at Olivas Park.  He's a slow learner but he is becoming educated 

Thanks Tim.  Look forward to your expanded post.

[Ronald Montesano]

Did I imagine that I posted Cazenovia Park, South Buffalo, western New York, USA?  Must be the Dundee Pale Bock Lager.  In any case, rumored to be a Willie Dunn or a Willie Park.  Great little nine hole track...I passed the site on to the fellow who directs the Olmstead Parks organization in WNY, Dave Hoover.  Here's hoping he can act on it.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks for the response Mark.   

The course I questioned was Buenaventura, not Olivas Park, but you get the picture.   

As I said I don't doubt your sincerity and hope you can keep Forrest honest about these things.

I am still a bit confused about your respective roles in all of this.   You say that you two will choose the designers?  Are the two of you also planning on doing some design work?     If so, doesn't this create pretty large conflict for a non-profit?

Are you and Forrest equals in this, or is one of you subordinate to the other?

How will the selection process work?   Will you be soliciting and accepting proposals?  Or will it be a closed shop?

What is in it for you guys, other than doing a good thing for golf?

I hope you don't think it prying, but these seem like pretty important questions to me.  I personally prefer benign neglect of our old courses than a botched job of restoration, or even a less authentic restoration than others might have done.

[Mark_Fine]

Ronald,
Thanks your your help!
Mark

DMoriarty,
The purpose of my post was not to do an interview and I don't have the time for a Merion style debate   Re-read KIC's mission statement from their website.  We have been brought on to help make that happen and we will wear a lot of hats in the process. 

I have this feeling we will find many courses and communities that will benefit from our/KIC's involvement.  If they have a better option (like let their course be negelected or potentially be closed like what could happen to Mark Twain GC) or would prefer to do something their own way, go for it.  We (KIC) will work with them to try to make everyone happy, however, what KIC will not do, is give out funds to municipalities to do with as they please.  History has shown, that does not necessarily work.  If KIC is going to raise the money, they are going to have their own team oversee the spending of it and they need helpand expertise to do it! 

Good night!

Mark

[wsmorrison]

It seems to me that KIC can come up with a better model.  One that does not underestimate the abilities of municipalities to make good decisions with their land and their end-users.  After KIC packs up and moves on to the next gig, the municipality is left with the results.  Why shouldn't they be an active participant?  The big print giveth and the small print taketh away.  I'd be wary of the small print.  It seems to me a panel of architects, construction experts, agronomists and course managers would be a better way to go.  Checks and balances on conflicts of interest and decision processes should be encouraged.  It sounds like a monopoly process to me and those that hold the purse strings are presenting a do it our way or no way attitude is not something I'd jump at.  Beware Greeks bearing gifts.  Mark, there aren't any Greeks in your group, are there? 

[DMoriarty]

DMoriarty,
The purpose of my post was not to do an interview and I don't have the time for a Merion style debate   Re-read KIC's mission statement from their website.  We have been brought on to help make that happen and we will wear a lot of hats in the process. 

I have this feeling we will find many courses and communities that will benefit from our/KIC's involvement.  If they have a better option (like let their course be negelected or potentially be closed like what could happen to Mark Twain GC) or would prefer to do something their own way, go for it.  We (KIC) will work with them to try to make everyone happy, however, what KIC will not do, is give out funds to municipalities to do with as they please.  History has shown, that does not necessarily work.  If KIC is going to raise the money, they are going to have their own team oversee the spending of it and they need helpand expertise to do it! 

Good night!

Mark

Sorry you find my questions unworthy of answers.  Remember that this is not my thread, it is yours.  You came here asking us for help.   

I'm not looking for any debate, but rather asking about how designers will be chosen and what Forrest's and your role will be in the choosing and the designer/design.  I would think that, as a non-profit, KIC would welcome such inquiries. 

In an earlier post, you suggested that we contact Mr. Bergman directly.   Can you pass on his direct contact information so that those of us with questions can get answers? 

________________________________________

Wayne Morrison,

Are you quoting Tom Waits?   If so, then there is hope in the world, or at least fish in the jail house tonight.

[wsmorrison]

Tom Waits for no man.  He has long been a favorite of mine.  You too, David?  Well I'll be.  We both question the KIC model with Richardson/Fine and have a high regard for TW.  I expect the sun will rise in the west and set in the east tomorrow.  Will wonders never cease?