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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« on: August 28, 2008, 05:31:04 PM »
After my second playing of the course I offer the following observations:

I think the architect and shapers are to be commended for exercising some constraint - the shaped movements are generally bold, befitting a site that offers a broad vista.  Micro-shaping for the sake of aesthetics or "cuteness" was generally avoided - no small task.

The fescue fairways truly play firm and fast.

The "native" areas are slow to grown in, but somehow I find their ruggedness to be appealing.

The bunkering is very effective with rugged interiors and sand that is difficult to play from.  They are true hazards whether greenside or off fairway. 

Fairways are generally abundant with the exception of the short uphill 12th, tight 10th and ledge-like 8th - each being a nice change of pace off the tee.  I shot 90 and did not lose a ball.

As John Kirk acutely noticed, the orientation/routing of the first half of each nine is mirrored, perhaps a weakness.

What Sean Leary called containment John Kirk called side and backboards.  There is a lot of this at CB, but I find them a fun invitation to golf your ball along the ground.  There are places where the ball is repelled as well as Sean found out when his approach to the par four 7th green carried the putting surface yet left him with a difficult 50 yards uphill pitch for his third due to an extreme false front.   

The short holes are generally redundant with three of the four requiring short-iron drop shots.  We played the 6541 yard markers and I'm guessing the better players never pulled more than a 7-iron.  It is a shame that the lower tee hard by the railway is not routinely utilized at the 17th.  It stretches that hole to 218 yards across flat ground through a tight corridor and I suspect would easily be the best of the bunch.  To boot the short hole greens, excepting the 9th are relatively shallow and offer no elasticity.  The 9th can be stretched to 227 but its significant drop yields a much shorter effective shot.  That hole is out of sync with the balance of the course, but fun nonetheless. 

The par five 4th and 14th are somewhat redundant though solid holes that require a legitimate strategic though not obvious decision to lay up or attempt to reach in two.  I did not originally like the 8th along a ledge created at the top of the property. It reminded me somewhat of the Grand Canyon caricature hole draw by that artist back in the '70's.  It has a fantastic deep green, however (50 yards per the pin sheet).  I suspect I was biased initially as a right-handed slicer of the ball, but there is a place for demanding accuracy.  I wouldn't want to play it from the 602 yards tips, however.  I really like the 18th as the architect combines an easily diagonal carry from the tee (think 7 to 2 o'clock) with perfectly place fairway bunkers down the left side.  My partners, with good length and slight draws really battled to avoid that bunker. 

I do believe an argument can be made that the par fours as a group are as solid as any modern course's.  I can't think of a single weak hole, though the dramatically uphill short 12th (played at 262 yards and tipping out at 302) is quirky and virtually demands that one take driver as the landing area is the widest on the hole.  Its Stilwellian green is very well done such that there will be plenty of three putt pars for those talented enough to drive the green.  I believe John was on and Richard and Sean putted from the fringe.  The first (played at 465, tipping out at 498) and 5th (played at 441, tipping out at 490) are first rate two shotters with the latter featuring a boomerang green around a wonderful lions mouth bunker, the only one on the hole.  It is enhanced by a skyline green with the water and mountains in the distance.  The architect gives you abundant fairway width on both holes to yield a reasonable approach to very demanding greens.  Miss the first green left and a wide sidehill fairway expanse will yield a 50 yards pitch to the green.  The 10th and 6th have narrow greens nicely carved into the saddle of manufactured dunes and are visually stunning and require accurate approaches with no sideboards.  The 7th (449/508) features a great diagonally carry from the tee and severly uphill approach to the falsely fronted green that victimized Sean - the end of a superb stretch of 3 par fours. 

Just some random sophomoric thoughts.  I like this golf course immensely and can't fathom not playing it on my annual trip to Seattle.  Hopefully, Richard, John and Sean will weight in.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2008, 06:57:46 PM »
Not much to add. Plays very firm, and there are some outstanding holes.Greens are still too slow and I am not as enthralled with the mounding surrounding the greens, but that's me. Have not played an Engh course but it reminds me of pics I have seen. Don't like 9 at all, but that is common. Just sticks out like a sore thumb.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 07:12:04 PM »
Great write up Michael. I couldn't agree with you more. Par 4's are what makes this place special, especially, #1, #5, #6, #10, #14, and #16.

I am really looking forward to see how they will set this course up for US Am.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 07:37:28 PM »
Gents,

I'll be out this way each August and propose that we make this a regular foursome. 

Word up.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 08:15:00 PM »
We played from the sand markers (about 6550 yards), rather than the sand tee setup (about 6350 yards).  The rating/slope of the course from those tees is 72.2/129.  My handicap is currently 1.9, up from the 0s during the early summer.  I have started to play well again recently.

I shot a rather easy 76 on Tuesday.  I three-putted twice by missing short putts on the second and third holes of the day (we teed off on no. 10 for maintenance reasons), but then started to get the hang of the slower greens, which were rolling about 8 - 8.5 feet.  I lost three strokes on what I would consider very unfortunate results on tee shots.  On no. 14, I tried to drive it over the centerline bunker (shouldn't have tried, too far to carry), but landed in and cozied up to the front lip, which led to double bogey.  On no. 2, I tried to hit the bunt driver, but pulled it left into a little grassy crevice short of the bunker, and was lucky to escape with bogey.

Based on my experience, a player will lose shots at Chambers Bay in unusual ways, that one will be sailing along smoothly, and then something strange will happen.  If I had been competing Tuesday, and was subject to these odd breaks, it may have been demoralizing or infuriating.  Otherwise, I found the course pretty easy.  I was driving the ball straight but not far.  The correct club to hit on the par threes was 9-iron, 8-iron, 9-iron, 7-iron.  I purposely laid up for a full third shot on three of the par fives, and in each case this was better than getting close but missing the target.  On the fourth par five, no. 4, I tried to get close with a 4-wood from 210 yards, way uphill, and I had to hit a really good, 30 yard, bump and run to keep it within 15 feet of the hole.  I should have laid up there, too.

I made two birdies, both on par fives, one was luck and one was skill.  On hole no. 8, I hit one too many clubs, but the ball banked off a huge backboard behind the green and rolled down to 6 inches for a tap-in.  I like the sideboards and backboards, but I'm afraid they will make the game too easy for the great players.  I think Chambers Bay is too easy for national championships.  We shall see if narrowing fairways to 35-40 yards will toughen it up enough to challenge them.  I liked the idea of Torrey Pines and the longer, wider U.S. Open setup, but there are just too many greens at Chambers Bay where misses are funneled back onto the green.

Greens were mostly easy to read.  At Chambers Bay it's all about getting used to the slower fescue surfaces.  The ball still breaks a lot in places, so for a tournament they could temporarily speed up the greens, resulting in huge breaking putts, with severe uphill and downhill considerations.  I misread a pin-high birdie putt at no. 6 quite badly.  I consider a misread putt to be high praise for a golf course.

Also, it may have been easy because they have to use easy pin placements to keep the players moving.  My sense is they use mostly easier pin locations, though holes 1, 5, 13, and 16 were all difficult pins.

The community sense of the course is fabulous, with regular train activity and a steady stream of hikers and onlookers.  The Puget Sound was calm and glassy smooth, not an unusual site.

I'll go ahead and give this course a Doak rating.  For me, the design is a 6, possibly a 7, but fescue playing surfaces raise the course a full point, and the unique setting makes Chambers Bay a solid 7, possibly an 8.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 09:21:24 PM »
I look forward to the day the course is fully grown-in and matured so that one can experience those slopes at higher speeds.....

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 09:34:13 PM »
Its interesting to me to read comparisons between Chambers Bay and Jim Engh's style of design. I tend to think the backboards and slopes make the game and courses much more interesting, especially when some of them kick the ball toward the hole and others away as they do at Chambers Bay. I really like CB and really like Engh courses, so I'll agree with that comparison to a point. I really liked #8 and 9 as a change of pace at a good point in the round. I think there's just a good variety of holes out there period.

Will it be a great US Open course? Time will tell. I do think its a great course for the recreational and good amateur player. Its in my top five, which surprised me initially.

John,
Would the course have been a better test for you from further back? We played those tees as well and while I struggled a bit I wondered if maybe we weren't one set of tees too far forward (both 5-7 hcps). Most of my problems were self-induced as usual.


Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 09:52:19 PM »
Andy,

My issue with the sideboards and backboards at Chambers is just the sheer number of holes that have them. I find that I aim away from greens all day there. Holes 3,4,5,7,9,11,12,13,14,15, and 18 all have sideboards or backboards. Too many, imho.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 10:17:40 PM by Sean Leary »

Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 09:58:28 PM »
Sean,
I guess I don't mind that. Some of those holes you mentioned (#7 is the most obvious) also have areas that kick the ball away from the green. The banks certainly benefit some pin placements more than others. I like that variety in that you can set up a course much easier or harder depending on the day. Its one of those "preference" things, I like them but certainly don't expect everyone else to.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 10:21:20 PM »
Part of the reason the slopes work is because the greens are so slow. The greens are so severe that if faster, the sideboards would send them though greens.

Don't get me wrong, I love the course, I just think that part was overdone.

Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 10:23:48 PM »
It does seem that it would be harder to get the greens much slower than they have been, we played in late June and that was the biggest negative. I don't think they should run super fast with all the slopes, but at least something in the 8-9 range would be more fun.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2008, 12:44:27 AM »
Andy,

The course would play best for me, as many courses do, around 6800-7000 yards.  Our group handicaps were 2, 6, 12, and 13, so the sand tees were the best choice.

I agree with Sean about the sideboards, but mostly from the standpoint that good players will use them on occasion to insure par or better on holes.  I like the greenside sideboards and backboards, but they are not my favorite set of greens for rolling the ball into and around the greens.  They are pretty fun, though.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 08:30:54 AM »
Sean

I got the sense the greens were slow b/c of grow in.

Interesting point re side / back boards; what I found attractive was what the ground looked like 10-40 yards short of the greens.  That was impressive -- and if they ever get a strong enough wind, it will be a big-time challenge.  I hit a bunch of grounders in and that was a blast -- hard!

Mike, I took a bunch of pics a month ago and could post some.  Don't want to ruin this thread of word pictures unless it's okay with you...

Mark

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 09:22:21 AM »
Mark,

John hit a number of shots that he bounced in as well.  I say he thinned them and got lucky, he says he hit it in low on purpose. ;)

I just don't think the course is in the same rarified air as Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal. I compare it more to Bandon or Whistling Straits. Nothing to be ashamed of, for sure.

Andy,

It played a little short for us yes. Except for hole 1, which is just a monster. Finally made a par there is my 4th time playing it.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2008, 11:27:12 AM »
Mark,

By all means, if you have some nice pictures of the course, I would be very interested in seeing them.  In particular, I would like to see pictures of 1, 4-7, 10, 12, 14, 16 and 17.

Sean, the second shot at no. 5 just begged for a roundhouse curveball around the lion's mouth bunker.  Rrrraaawwwwwrrrrrr!

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2008, 12:01:21 PM »
John

I'm leaving for a 24hr in/out op so can only put up a few right now. Will give you the other holes requested in a few days.

Mark

1 tee



4 tee



4 green



5 tee



5 fwy bunker w winter green



5 approach



6 tee



6 approach



7 tee



7 fwy



7 approach -- note drive of playing partner from back tee!



Mark

Jim Colton

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2008, 12:54:20 PM »
Mark,

 Thanks for posting the pictures.  Their website only has aerial shots and sketches of the holes...it's difficult to get a sense of the scale of the dunes.

  Is the tree still there?  How is it holding up?

 

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2008, 01:08:19 PM »
Sean,
  I like sideboards, and I agree with you that CB has an overabundance which turns a positive into a negative.
  Do we have any guarantee that they will remain closely mown during the Amateur and Open. They could be very penal.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2008, 02:10:07 PM »
I was expecting Whistling Straits and was pleasantly surprised.

I think the difference is while each lack the quirk that is a crucial component of naturalism - that's really the crux of the sideboard issue, namely that the holes and greens tend to run alongside the, ahem, "dunes" - Whistling feels less honest and more contrived 100 yards and in whereas Chambers feels more whimsical and capricious.

Which is not to say either possess those characteristics intrinsic to great links. They are of modern sensibilities...

I guess another way to put it is the degree to which knowing that a massive amount of earth was moved affects your impressions.

Mark

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2008, 05:05:55 PM »
I'll help out with a few more photos, although I don't think mine are as good as Mark's.
Approach on 1


10 tee.  We had to start on 10 the day I played.  Apparently that's pretty common.  I think the course would flow better starting on 1, plus you don't have 9 as the last hole of the round.


10 approach is a tough one.  You really don't feel like there is anywhere you can miss.


10 green


12 tee.  12 was fun, but for me too much risk of losing a ball to hit driver.  There's a lot more room than you perceive from the tee.


12 approach


12 green from the rear looking back towards the fairway.  This was one wild green. 


14 tee.  That little fairway bunker is in a great spot.


14 approach


16 tee


16 green looking back towards the tee.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2008, 06:44:51 PM »
John M, thanks for chipping in -- I had my hands full with 12 and didn't get any pics.

Here are my contributions to John K's requests:

10 tee



10 approach



14 tee



16 tee



Sign near 16 tee



17 tee, wide view



17 tee, close up



Jim C, a metal fencing material wraps around the tree; no idea the prognosis.  Gratuitous tree pic -- this is 15 tee:



Mark

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2008, 07:03:17 PM »
John Kirk, Andy,
 If you two haven't already, could you possible debate the differences between CB and Ballyneal?
I know John's view and Andy has Ballyneal nowhere near his top 5.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2008, 08:48:43 PM »
Adam,
I'm not sure "nowhere near my top five" would be the first way I'd describe Ballyneal. Its true its not in my top five, but I think its easily a top 100 USA golf course. I like it better than places like Pasatiempo, Harbour Town, Whistling Straits, and others. (I think those three are top 100 courses too by the way).

The biggest difference for me--and I'll admit this is most likely largely a personal preference--is that Ballyneal's setting doesn't have the "awe" factor for me that it does for some of you. That's not to say at all that I didn't enjoy everything about the club. I'm very fortunate in that I REALLY like my top five. Chambers did have that awe factor for me. That's the biggest reason for the differential.

Also keep in mind that I only played one day at each course--partially why I did not post on this prior to being asked.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2008, 08:55:18 PM »
The waste areas are developing nicely. I think another wet winter will be perfect to to fill in and "naturalize" the look.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Andy Troeger

Re: Thoughts on Chambers Bay
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2008, 08:55:42 PM »

I shot a rather easy 76 on Tuesday. 

Based on my experience, a player will lose shots at Chambers Bay in unusual ways, that one will be sailing along smoothly, and then something strange will happen.  If I had been competing Tuesday, and was subject to these odd breaks, it may have been demoralizing or infuriating.  Otherwise, I found the course pretty easy.  I was driving the ball straight but not far. 


Adam,
If you wanting further comparison with John K., I would tend to echo his comments here, except that was the way I felt about Ballyneal as opposed to Chambers. I did play Ballyneal on a calm day, but when I went back out the second time at Ballyneal with four clubs, no yardage markers other than those near the tees, and shot 36 without doing anything that special, I did wonder if the course was a bit toothless without the wind. Maybe that's not an issue as the wind is likely often present. Great fun though--I'm not a fan of super hard.