Flynn & Peters II

[Thomas MacWood]

Mr. MacWood:

Why do you assume I'm uncomfortable with Leeds' living arrangement?Your reaction on this thread is a good indication I just think it's another one of your ridiculous stretches to assume that just because Leeds and Parker lived together that was the reason Leeds took over the architecture of Myopia and made it famous and himself famous. Did it ever occur to you he had the respect of all golfers and golf clubs in that area which were not many because he was certainly one of the very best golfers in Boston? He wasn't the only good golfer in Boston. He also won the first two tournaments played on the original Myopia nine in 1894 about a month after it opened. Maybe you don't think that's what got their attention and that's precisely why you totally lack any deductive ability, logic or commonsense in these things.Do you know how big and who was in the field?

Leeds was not part of the hierarchy of Myopia and Parker was? Yes. Leeds was not a member of Myopia.Again, you have zero idea what you're talking about because you have zero idea of what Boston was back then that way and still is today. Maybe you just assume it was the same as Columbus Ohio or Ivory Tower Ohio or wherever you live and relate to but I guarantee you it wasn't. All those kinds of people between Myopia Hunt Club and TCC and a few of the other clubs like them knew each other, went to school and college with one another and married into the same families. It's the same today but was so much more so back then for completely obvious reasons. Who were the best amateur golfers in Boston in 1894?

Have you ever heard of Myopia's Boardman family, Mr. MacWood? No.Of course you haven't. Do you know their relationship with Leeds? No.Of course you don't. Do you know who the Merrills were, the Bacons, The Hunnewells, A.P Gardner and particularly R. M. Appleton? Yes.Of course you don't and that's why you'll never be able to understand some of these clubs by JUST sticking your nose in a book, a magazine or the computer somewhere in Ohio and never getting out to see and know and understand these places, these clubs, their members and their friends.

You made the remarkable statement on here that the master of the Fox Hounds of Myopia Hunt Club, R.M. Appleton could never have laid out a golf course with Merrill and Gardner. Why do you assume that, Mr. MacWood?Did I say that? I said Willie Campbell laid out the first nine. What in the world gives you that ridiculous idea? I think you are putting words in my mouth. Perhaps you can't chew gum and walk at the same time but I assure you R.M. Appleton had the ability to be one of Boston's best fox hunters and also have the knowledge and werewithall to lay out a golf course, and particularly since he had a golf course on his own estate before Myopia even considered having a golf course. You don't think that's relevent and important, Mr. MacWood? I can walk and chew gum at the same time, and owning an estate is very impressive. And if not, why not? I would agree. Owning an estate would definitely give Appleton great insight.

Don't try to dismiss this Mr. MacWood? Dismiss what? Don't try to ignore it. This is what it was all about back then and you have zero sense of it. You don't understand that time, you don't understand that place, and you definitely do not understand those people and it shows in spades!

I dare say if you found out on your Google website that Herbert Leeds had an ugly Port Wine Stain on the side of his face and a complex about it and you figured you'd first discovered that information you would try to rationalize and exaggerate the importance of it into why he became the architect he did.  I still don't understand why you make jokes about Leeds and Parker having anal sex. 

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Thanks for that post. I believe your interesting new "red" responses say everything about you this website should know and needs to know, and most particularly the last one. I never said anything remotely like that, you know it and so does everyone else on here who reads this website, including Myopia-----but you sure did. Nice going!

Thanks again and good luck.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mr. MacWood,

Several years ago I did some research on the gypsy fly moth and I discoverd that it was brought to America from the far east by a gentlman who intended to use it for silk production. Legend has it that he kept the moth in an aquarium in his lab in Boston, and on one hot and windy day he opened the window, the moths escaped. In a very few years they multiplied to the point where they were completely defoliating entire forests in New England. This prompted Massachusetts to develop the first state funded college of agriculture, with extension agencies, initially set up to research control measures for dealing with the gypsy fly moth. That's the story as I heard it from an entomologist. I don't recall now what year this was, but I'm pretty sure that it pre-dated golf.

I think that this is a fascinating story to look into and research. Especially from the standpoint of turfgrass research and how it developed afterwards as a category of early agricultural research.

[Mike_Cirba]

How does one aspire to be "Master of the Hounds"? 

It sounds really cool.   

[Thomas MacWood]

Interesting story. When you said he brought the moth back from the Far East I immediately thought of Charles Sprague Sargent who was the first director of the Arnold Arboretium in Boston. I think he was involved in some plant exploration in the Far East. And the Arnold Arboretium is part of the so-called Emerald Necklace, the series of parks designed by landscape architect FL Olmsted.

[TEPaul]

"How does one aspire to be "Master of the Hounds"? 
It sounds really cool.   "

Mr. C:

It was quite a culture, that's for sure---eg extremely powerful in clubs like those.

Matter of fact, someone should write a book on how inextricably early golf in places like that were intertwinned with the recreational world of the horse---eg hunting, polo, racing, steeplechasing etc. There's no question at all that some of the early golf features were off-shoots of things like steeplechasing if not actual steeplechase features.  But in a number of cases the alliance of something like hunting and early golf was an uneasy one at some of those clubs. And that is why golf probably would not have happened at Myopia Hunt Club when it did if it had not been promoted, as well as actually laid out, by R.M. Appleton (and a couple of his Myopia friends) who had become the Master of the Hounds. Again, Appleton had his own six hole golf course on his estate, Appleton Farm, before Myopia had golf. (Appleton Farm in Ipswich, Mass, near South Hamilton and Myopia is believe to be today the oldest farm still in the same family in the United States). Had someone else far less inclined toward golf been the Master of the Hounds in 1894, the old club records claim golf would not have happened when it did with Appleton in 1894.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I'm picturing a novel...something in the style of perhaps Poe...or Washington Irving...

I'm picturing Tom MacWood....on horseback...travelling through...oh wait...he doesn't travel.

Ok...cut..

I'm picturing David Moriarty...on the other side of a brick wall...with mortar...as I awaken from a wine-induced-drugged-stupor..

They're talking about Peters, and Campbell, and Barking...er...Barker...and some chap named Whigham who best I can tell is some type of snivelling toady...

Extolling their great, unnoticed designs..all the while the bricks are getting higher and higher...until..

in the distance...the sounds...of hounds..

The barking grows louder..or is that Barker?   

From within the walls of this GCA mauseleom, the sound of heartbeat begins...faint at first...the growing...pulsing...constant pounding...until the sound is almost deafening.

Is this a dream?   Or is it the 47th Merion-related thread started in the past 6 months...or is it 6 years?

Time envelops into itself, and becomes a hazy, pale mist unmeasurable dynamic.

And then, just when you begin to feel safe...almost calm...someone uncovers a newspaper article from The Portsmouth Behemoth, circa 1897, and in the distance, on a full-moon night, a dog howls, it's choking voice bleating against the stillness, and....frighteningly...

it begins anew. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
I picture you in threesome with Leeds and Parker.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike
I picture you in threesome with Leeds and Parker.

Tom,

Please...join us in a fourball?   

[Thomas MacWood]

I'll take a raincheck.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'll take a raincheck.

Darn...I know you have a better sense of humor than that!   

[TEPaul]

"Quote from: Tom MacWood on Today at 07:41:39 pm
I'll take a raincheck.


Darn...I know you have a better sense of humor than that!"


MikeC:

Judging from that post you just wrote on the previous page, I think you're ready to write the Great American Novel (humorous novel that is).

As for Mr. MacWood and his decision to take a raincheck, I'm afraid with the courses he's chosen to research and critique and revise the history of from afar, his entire career has been, is, and will continue to be a rain check. His fanciful notions about a course like Myopia (another one I suspect he's never been to) and that Willie Campbell designed the original nine and his suggestion that the club should ditch their entire history and start from scratch, there really isn't even any reason to discuss anything with him anymore. All that is necessary to do henceforth when he comes up with these unsupportable notions is to just come on here and explain they are all wrong.

There is one item, however, I think we should ask him to research and produce that could potentially kill two or even three birds with one stone. That is, since he claims these ship passenger manifests are so reliable, he  should produce an accurate ship manifest that proves when Willie Campbell arrived in this country. Why should we bother to try to do that for him since Campbell designing the original nine at Myopia was his claim and certainly not ours.

What excuse do you think he will use this time not to do that, Mike C? There is something pretty fishy about these constant excuses he uses not to produce the information he says he has, don't you think Michael Hemingway Cirba?  By the way, September is beginning to look like a lot busier month than I thought it would be so perhaps we should put off the next meeting of the "Philadelphia Syndrome" until October or even November unless you think one of our Philadephia legendary architect's legendary reputation is under threat and in grave danger from another of these "independent, expert" interloper researchers. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul, et. al.,

You and others remind me of Republicans and Democrats.

Both have a lot to offer, but neither of them can get anything constructive done.

Why not stop with the needling, it no longer serves a purpose.

Collectively you could accomplish a great deal, at swords point, very little or nothing will come of it.

So, stop the sniping, whether it's with a topic designed or destined to create dissent or a topic that will morph into dissent.

I'm not saying that you should agree with one another, but, get rid of the snide window dressing that serves no purpose.

You possess the passion for architecture, the time to embark upon research, and the potential to engage in intelligent dialogue ..... sometimes.

So. put it to constructive use.

Doing so will benefit you and everyone else.

So, please, stop the insanity and get back to the spirit of the site.

Thanks

[Mike_Cirba]

C'mon Patrick...what the hell is going on with you lately??

First, your recent incredibly profound posts filled with life-wisdom.

Now...a reasoned call for moderation and putting aside differences and coming together for a greater purpose?

Next, I'll see you at an Obama rally!   

Now THIS is change we can all believe in!!   



p.s....believe it or not, my feeble attempts at humor through literary satire are really trying to lighten the mood on some of these topics.    Perhaps I'll start working on a self-directed movie script called "The Philadelphia Syndrome", in which the self-important and protective statements of a group of modern day patriots in the city of brotherly love lead to a complete meltdown of a golf course architecture website! 

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I hear what you're saying and I do appreciate it but you too have to look at it from the other side, apparently---our side too.

This sniping and needling (primarily humor) probably isn't going to stop until some of these truly outrageous claims by these two guys about courses like Merion and Myopia stop. We just aren't going to let that kind of completely illogical and unsupportable revisionist architectural garbage pass on here uncommented on. Every time they continue to float that garbage on here we will comment on it and counterpoint it and if it's in the form of semi-humorous needling, that's just the way it's going to be. We feel very strongly about the accurate architectural histories of these clubs and courses and we will never let this kind of revisionism that they're attempting to pass off as fact stand.

If they really do want to support it then let them do that not with this constant illogical speculation and conjecture but with something really solid. We all know they aren't going to ever do that because they can't---because it doesn't exist. But the records from the clubs own contemporaneous administration records exist and they very much do counterpoint and indicate that these illogical speculations are wrong.

As far as doing something collaborative or cooperative with a guy like Tom MacWood, perhaps you've missed it but I offered that on here a couple of times and as usual he continues to completely ignore it. It doesn't look like that is going to change on his part.