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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The New Dubbsdread?
« on: September 10, 2009, 04:58:15 PM »
Just turned on the tellie. Saw two ball marks with balls close to the hole. Then heard " to go four under".

Did Mr. Jemsek shoot himself in the foot trying to get a U.S. Open?

Narrowing fairways only plays into the Pro golfer's wheelhouse.

If firming up the turf will get the desired score, should a U.S. Open be granted, what happens when it rains?

But seriously, firm ground with No rough would require more skill, handcuffing the way layer. Don't it?

Thoughts?

  Oh yeah, have there been any steps to mitigate the pond stench on the 16th? (It's been a long time since I was there)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 06:40:52 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2009, 05:06:14 PM »
Adam,

I think firmness is better, but to materially impact these guys you need ultra firm AND legitimate rough.

I think it's a mistake to do anything based on the very best in the game...

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 08:47:18 PM »
Not sure about any of you, but I have quite tried and bored to death with Rees Jones' lack of creativity with his bunkers. Same ol', same ol.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 12:18:08 AM »
Rich,

Are they Rees bunkers or USGA bunkers? Their mantra is deep and steep, look at the list of courses which have depened their bunkers with either Rees or MacDonald & Sons; Merion, Oakmont, Torrey Pines, Bethpage Black and now Dub's Dread. These clubs are buying the formula that brings a USGA Championship; coincidence, I think not.

The real question is: should the Jemseck's be the first to be told they made a poor investment?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2009, 12:24:59 AM »
Adam
I played it a week after it opened.  It is vastly improved, and I really liked it before.

If Torrey can get an Open, then Cog deserves a 1/2 dozen!


 ;)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2009, 12:43:54 AM »
I read that the USGA has Cog Hill among 8 contenders for the US Open in the MW in 2017.  Southern Hills was mentioned.  Erin Hills noted as the front runner.  

Characteristic of the newer deeper fairway bunkers the 1st now look like this.



The 7th was changed dramatically where Rees created a Cape Hole requiring a decision off the tee as to how much to bite off.  Sabbatini and Holmes had wedges in.  Ogilvy was "enticed" and put in the drink on Thursday.  



The other big change was on 8.


The 16th has always been an exceptionally fine hole.







« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 11:06:32 AM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2009, 12:47:26 AM »
Dan,

Not sure those are great advertising, though I do recall that they had at least a couple bunkers perpendicular to the line of play.

Jeff
That was one hellacious beaver.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 12:55:56 AM »

Those bunkers look like a bad Bethpage Black copy to me.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 01:14:17 AM »
Jeff,  The photos speak for themselves.

Interesting comments on the redesigned Cog in this Trib story.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/golf/chi-11-bmw-birdies-bogeys-sep11,0,1435224.story
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 01:26:10 AM »
The bunkers are still in the Dick Wilson jigsaw-puzzle shape, though it's hard to tell except from the air, because of their depth.

What I've seen over the first two days is that the depth isn't giving players all that much trouble, even when short-sided. They're just incredibly good.

The course is playing about a stroke harder per round with the greens running at 12.5, 3.5 inch rough, and next to no wind in warm weather over the first 36 holes.

In May, Mike Davis told me that all of Cog's "problems" had been solved, and it was essentially a matter of when to hold an Open, not if. More recently, the fact that the course hosts a Tour tournament has been brought back up, but since it moves out of town (Crooked Stick) for the Ryder Cup in 2012, that's not the problem it once was. I think both Erin Hills and Cog Hill will get an Open. Cog's will probably come after, especially if Chicago gets the Olympics. Nobody would want to sell corporate hospitality in Chicago at a non-Olympic site in 2016.

Incidentally, it's Jemsek, not Jemseck, and Dubsdread, not Dubb's Dread.
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2009, 05:51:00 PM »
Thanx Tim, I didn't look right either spelling.

Sully, I'm struck by the apparent ambiguity in having legit rough and ultra firm. Doesn't the rough stop balls from going farther off line?

Tiger's score today confirms my suspicions and earlier speculations about scoring made after the Illinois PGA played and Mark Smols introduced us to the new and improved Dubbsdread.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2009, 07:44:33 PM »
I can't believe how different the course looks. The squared off tee boxes make it look like a completely different place.
So bad it's good!

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 11:05:47 AM »
Speaking of square tee boxes, this is a shot looking back at the 9th tee. 



"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2009, 09:30:56 PM »
OH MY!

Such elasticity.

Paul, As much as I like homerism, I just cannot condone these changes.

The bunkers on the outside leg of 17 are hideous containment. Playing from under those trees seems nearly impossible, now.

BTW, They reminded me of another fine example of bunker mal-practice. Only at Riviera.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Chris Flamion

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2009, 10:17:42 PM »
Having gone over today to watch the final round, those photos of the bunkers don't do them justice.

Most of the greenside bunkers are at least 6 feet deep and a few are probably closer to 8 or 9 feet deep.

on number 7 today I saw only a handful of guys do anything other than lay up short of the water and just play the longer shot in.

On the way out I walked across the 11th fairway and was very very surprised out how soft it was, especially after seeing how far some of the balls were rolling out.

God those guys can strike it well

tlavin

Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2009, 11:43:23 AM »
OH MY!

Such elasticity.

Paul, As much as I like homerism, I just cannot condone these changes.

The bunkers on the outside leg of 17 are hideous containment. Playing from under those trees seems nearly impossible, now.

BTW, They reminded me of another fine example of bunker mal-practice. Only at Riviera.

I like the bunker malpractice line, but I like the look of the bunkers on 17.  They are more for visual purposes, to be sure, but I like the way they define the movement of the fairway.  I'm not the biggest fan of Jones' work, but he took some big chances with the bunker design at Dubsdread, essentially putting old-style deep, grass faced bunkers on a modern Dick Wilson design.  I think he succeeded in what the customer wanted.  I think the golf course is at least five shots harder than it was last year.  That's what the client wanted.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2009, 12:17:20 PM »
I was stunned at how little rough Ken Lapp was permitted to have in place for the 2nd to last event of the "playoffs."  The last time I was there Mr. Jemsek told me that they only wanted 2 and 1/2 inches, but the course is so much easier when the rough is that short that it's frankly ridiculous.  If you're going to punish the bomb and gouge players for missing the fairways, there just has to be some penalty for being in the long stuff, but letting it actually be long.  The course should not play easier for the big kids than it does for the public. . .

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubb's Dread?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2009, 01:25:08 PM »

Sully, I'm struck by the apparent ambiguity in having legit rough and ultra firm. Doesn't the rough stop balls from going farther off line?



Adam,

Maybe I missed the target of your thread...are you suggesting that the "way layer" is a middling PGA Tour player that will struggle more on a wide and firm Dubsdread? Or that wide and firm is a better formula for interest and challenge for you and I?

If it's the former than your premise is bad because the middling PGA Tour player isn't on TV and the guys that are on TV each weekend would be there regardless of the width of the fairways and their effect on strategy...if it's the later, Yes!

Wide and firm fairways might bother the "way layer", but that guy isn't on TV.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2009, 01:57:32 PM »
Views of the 17th.  A very weak link for a championship finish IMHO.  I do like the new green, however. 


"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Mike Demetriou

Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2009, 02:14:21 PM »
So are the critics here complaining of the redesign from the PGA/USGA hosting perspective, or from the typical player perspective? Please specify because I'm confused.

I've played the course about 10 or 12 times - twice since the redesign. As a high handicapper (15), I think the course is now more difficult, and at the same time more enjoyable than it was prior to the redesign. The often discussed addition of the cape design on 7 is a great example. I understand that some tour players had wedges in, but most of us will not, and the hole is just much better than it was. Overall, but especially on the 7th, the grass faced bunkers are very cool, and they reduce the negative impact that their original jigsaw design used to convey. The 16th green now plays with some excellent movement, and if you risk it, you can get a ball to roll through the apron, and into an excellent top right pin position. I always loved the 16th, and now it is even more fun. The same goes for the 15th, the movement in the greens is more prevalent, and that was with them playing at around a 10.

The course is not perfect. The 42 different tees that are dramatically in view on the 9th hole are indeed ridiculous and superfluous, and yes, there are some problems with the lack of variety in most of the par threes (excepting 14 of course). However, overall, I think that the redesign was successful. It is said that the Jemseks want the course to be enjoyable for the public - I think they have stayed true to their word. I know it yielded a low number to TW, but what course hasn't? The rest of the tour didn't murder it, and we all agree that the rough was SHORT. I played it late in the afternoon on Sunday, August 29, and the rough was a little over 2 inches. I found the rough more often than I would've liked, though I didn't have as much trouble as I would've expected. I was sort of surprised to learn that they were keeping it short. If they had grown it out, wouldn't many of you been complaining that the course is still a cupcake, but for the egregiously long rough? I must agree with Shivas though, I remember losing a ball or two on 13 and re-teeing. I can only imagine they figured it would speed up play to change the setup on 13 to lateral. Anything to speed up play on tour is fine by me, but he is right, that makes it easier.

This group is collectively a tough critic. I understand that. I doubt I'm competent enough to rate it on a Doak scale, nor have I played enough private tracks in Chicagoland to accurately suggest where it rates in town, but we're not talking about Warwick Hills or Liberty National here. The redesigned Dubs is not a mediocre track. It is an excellent course, and I hope at least a few respected voices (certainly not yet me) will stand up for it.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The New Dubbsdread?
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2009, 02:52:47 PM »

This group is collectively a tough critic. 

Now that's an understatement. ;)

Mike -- Part of what's going on with the critiques of Dubsdread is what might be the umpteenth version of GCA's most stubbornly addictive debate: To what extent should courses be altered for majors?

On the private side, it seques into a debate about whether golf technology is rendering the old classics obsolete, and whether the old classics should keep chasing after majors. On the public side, it takes on the form of "Who is this course for?" Cog Hill, for better or worse, is currently trying to serve two masters (Chicago-area public golfers, USGA), and the interesting debate it seems is whether it can do both well.

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