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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #525 on: September 08, 2008, 01:16:27 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

TEPaul's offer to provide you with a synopsis of the documents offline provides you with the answer to your question about whether or not there is any real reason these documents are being withheld.   There is obviously no legitimate privacy concern with these documents.  They can share them with whoever they want.  That entire privacy nonsense was just an excuse not to share the documents, so they could cherry pick what they liked and ignore what they did not.

In fact, these two have been trying to advance a one-on-one P.R. campaign, showing a variety of people selected or sanitized portions or versions of the minutes, trying and convince them to agree with them before the information is completely vetted. 

Remember when Wayne repeatedly cautioned us not to reach any conclusions until my essay had been completely vetted?  Yet they are going coast to coast to selectively cajole people into accepting their story on a limited record that has not been vetted at all. 

I provided my sources in their entirety.   Until they do the same there story is nothing but propaganda.
____________________________________________________________

How many times are you going to bring this up?
 We simply will not let you get away with your faulty conclusions and revisionist histories where there is clear evidence that contradicts you.

Except that you have presented no "clear evidence" that establishes that Merion ignored Barker's routing.  You seem to think that if Merion did not pay him, then they must not have used his routing, but that just doesn't follow.

__________________________________________


In your messianic zeal to destroy the "legend" of Hugh Wilson, you aren't even recognizing your own total hypocrisy and inconsistencies.

Perhaps you should spend less time with the thesaurus, and more time dealing with the issues before you.

1.  Seaview was criticized.  (You indirectly acknowledge this by your strange Rustic Canyon comparison.)   While the printed criticism was not harsh, it was more pronounced than the kind of treatment these courses usually received in the press of the time.   
2.  You cannot pin these criticisms on me, as I have not criticized the course at all.  I've never played it.   I am just trying to get the facts straight, and the facts are that the course was criticized and then quickly changed.
3.  Multiple reports indicated that the bunkering was unfinished at Seaview.  (You claimed that above that Wilson did the bunkering but you know that this isn't really the case.)
4.  Ross and possibly another were brought to implement their own bunkering scheme within a few months after the opening.

As far as I know, all of the above is factual.   No hypocrisies.   No inconsistencies.   

The same cannot be said of your denial of these facts.  It seems you just made up the bit about Wilson being exhausted.   

I've considered the articles you site, as well as others you don't site.    None of them contradict any of the facts I listed above.  Most of them contradict your representations about the course having been finished by Wilson (but then you contradict this as well.)

In the 10-18-14 article briefly describing the holes, I believe most of the bunkers described were greenside, with a few notable exceptions.  Because Wilson was a disciple of Macdonald, it does not surprise me that he included many greenside bunkers initially. That was Macdonald's approach, as recommended by C.F. Whigham.   Nor does it surprise me that he built a few of the bunkers from the beginning.

Quote
Another irony is Tom MacWood's account of Barker's work at Columbia above.   While trying to hoist Barker undeservedly into the pantheon of great architects, you fault Wilson for being too busy to continue work at Seaview yet don't raise an eyebrow when Walter Travis is brought in to make wholesale changes, rebunkering, and redoing of greens at Columbia just a few years after opening.

You may not realize this, but like Macdonald and Raynor, Tom MacWood and I are two different people (of course I am Macdonald to his Raynor.)   You are combining something I said and critiquing it with something he said, and misrepresenting both of us in the process.

1.  I don't fault Wilson for being "too busy."  You've offered little support for your "too busy" theory.  What happened to your "exhausted?" theory.    I don't buy it.  After all it is not as if he would have been out there digging the bunkers himself! 

2.  Ross was brought in within two months after Seaview opened.

3.  I don't know what Travis did at Columbia.  DO YOU?   You still describe the changes at Columbia as "wholesale changes."   When were the changes made?  Within a few months after the course opened, or a decade later?  What exactly was changed?  Were the changes inline with Barker's original design (which Travis had seen and very much liked?) or a complete departure?

Quote
It's interesting to note the inconsistencies between the hole by hole descriptions in the Oct 1914 account and Tillinghast description of the tournament a few months later where he claims that "it is not bunkered as yet".    The descriptions of the bunker on the holes are very much the same today, such as the diagonal hells half acre cross bunker on the sixteenth, or the deep fronting bunkers on the 5th, or the short par three encircled by bunkers.   These all exist today.

Very interesting.  But I doubt for the reasons you think.
________________________________________________

TEPaul,

Tom your story about what the MCC documents establish is very much a moving target.   You keep changing what "facts" can be derived from these documents.    This is indication that about everything you are calling "fact" is really just speculation, opinion, and/or wishful thinking on your part. 

So we know what is not fact, but looking at how the story has changed, and how it differs from what Wayne and Mike have each claimed.   So the only remaining question is what facts are in these documents.    It must be pretty damning for your argument, otherwise we'd have seen it by now. 

I know you guys think you are protecting Merion,  but if I was at all involved with Merion I'd be pissed.  You guys are painting them as your accomplices, and this will put them in a rather awkward position when the truth finally comes out in full.

I have a hard time believing that your propaganda campaign is in their best interests.



Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

wsmorrison

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #526 on: September 08, 2008, 01:22:22 PM »
 :P

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #527 on: September 08, 2008, 01:35:41 PM »
David

Please cite for us the volley of criticisms of Seaview with actual quotes + attributions as I have provided?

Also, the routing that Wilson did still exist today, exactly as he laid it out; under the new Macwood/Moriarty Method, isn't this ALL that matters?

Afterall you're willing to give either Barker or M+W credit for the design of Merion based on that alone.

Oh...btw...did you note how the term laid out was used in those articles, over and over?

Another one bites the dustbin of history.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #528 on: September 08, 2008, 01:58:20 PM »
David

Please cite for us the volley of criticisms of Seaview with actual quotes + attributions as I have provided?

Also, the routing that Wilson did still exist today, exactly as he laid it out; under the new Macwood/Moriarty Method, isn't this ALL that matters?

Afterall you're willing to give either Barker or M+W credit for the design of Merion based on that alone.

Oh...btw...did you note how the term laid out was used in those articles, over and over?

Another one bites the dustbin of history.

Mike, 

You are confused.  I never claimed that Wilson did not design Seaview.   I think it is obvious that he did.   As for the criticisms, I will email them to you as soon as I receive the documents you offered to send me.   

I never said anything about giving Barker or Macdonald design credit for Merion.  I just want to figure out who did what. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #529 on: September 08, 2008, 02:04:32 PM »
Mr. Paul,

Thanks for your kind offer earlier, but I would be embarrassed to have you spend one iota of your time clearing up matters for little old me.......

I think I have a pretty good idea of what went on at Merion, but as always, I could be wrong.  It was interesting to read for a while, but I have long since lost interest in the inner workings of that club 100 or so years ago.

All the best to all the participants in the ongoing threads.  Some wondered if it would be resolved by 2013.....I am going to Vegas to bet on 3013. :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #530 on: September 08, 2008, 02:58:35 PM »

I never said anything about giving Barker or Macdonald design credit for Merion.  I just want to figure out who did what. 

David,

Then you no longer agree with yourself on the following?


"While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land.  Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan.   After the course was planned and land finally purchased, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course.   Immediately thereafter, the Construction Committee departed for NGLA so that Macdonald and Whigham could teach them how to build the golf holes at Merion East."   

Rich Goodale

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #531 on: September 08, 2008, 03:30:31 PM »
Speaking of attribution, I am having the vapours after being ignored regarding the history of the word "kerfuffle" on GCA.com.  As the following search shows, I was the first to use this word on this site over 6 years ago, when Tom Paul didn't even know the difference between "fast and firm" and "fast and loose" and HH Barker was just a gleam in Tom MaWood's eye.....

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?action=search2

Rich

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #532 on: September 08, 2008, 03:42:28 PM »
"I never said anything about giving Barker or Macdonald design credit for Merion.  I just want to figure out who did what."


MikeC and Wayne:

Can you believe this guy actually just said that???

What gives here anyway? We've been through almost five years of this nonsense and now he says that!?!?

Mr. Moriarty:

As has been our constant suggestion for about five years if you want to know who did what with Merion East and West read Alan Wilson's report carefully. We believe, and Merion believes, and has for many many decades now believed it's an accurate reflection of who did what architecturally on Merion East and West and it's the basis of their history books.

If you want to know in more detail that Alan Wilson's report explains who did what and where you never will know and either will we or Merion at this point. The reason is, as far as the club has ever known and as far as we've ever known specfic details of who did what and where on both courses simply was never recorded in greater detail than in Alan Wilson's report and now everyone directly connected to those times is dead. The only specific explanation we have of someone doing something specific is apparently Francis' story about the 15th green and 16th tee and how he resolved it with Lloyd.

Providing that you now actually believe what you just said above I believe we can now end all these threads on the history of the architecture of Merion!

Thank God! It's about time.   ;)

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #533 on: September 08, 2008, 03:55:59 PM »
Richard the Magnificent:

If you are the expert on "Kerfuffle" then why don't you explain to this website precisely what it means in the context of either Mr. Moriarty or Mr. MacWood coming here and demanding entitlement of and access to Merion or MCC's private records. You may also need to explain the policies and expected actions of the so-called "Philadelphia Syndrome" when a couple of revisionist clowns from some other states show up here and try to play fast and loose with the history of our local golf architecture "Legends."   8)

If these two don't shitcan their nonsense one of these days we should ask them to come here under the guise we will show them the ultra inner sanctum/sanctorum of these private club archives. Once they are in the door and it's locked we will transport them through the underground tunnel to the massive metal compactor over there and snuff out these two troublemakers once and for all.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #534 on: September 08, 2008, 04:04:59 PM »
Just to make sure that nobody gets the erroneous idea about the quality work Hugh Wilson did at Seaview, which is once again being unfairly diminished here, perhaps this snippet shows just how upset Mega-Financier Clarence Geist was with Hugh Wilson and his efforts at Seaview at the time he brought in Donald Ross. 

From May 1915, "American Golfer";

"National champion Francis Ouimet spent several days in Philadelphia last month.   He played at Whitemarsh first but he failed to break 80.   However, this performance must not be taken seriously for the ability of his fellows was very mediocre and the day could be regarded only as a skylark."

"However, on the next day he played at Seaview, where his play was more nearly like that which is expected of a national champion.   There, he scored a 73, partnered in a four-ball match by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson and opposed by Mr. Clarence H. Geist and Wilfrid Reid, the recently arrived pro, formerly of Banstead, England."
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 04:07:39 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #535 on: September 08, 2008, 04:06:23 PM »
"David,
Then you no longer agree with yourself on the following?"


Mike Cirba:

Either that or perhaps Mr. Moriarty has misunderstood what David Moriarty has been saying all along, or even vice versa. It may even include vice versa of the vice versa or even versa vice the vice versa.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #536 on: September 08, 2008, 04:12:39 PM »
Never mind about all the holes like that which came before Barker----I see no reason at all we all can't just get together with you and with your preposterous speculations and just act like that didn't happen and that they didn't exist before the remarkable Mr. Barker.

TE
Do you have any similar examples pre-1910?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #537 on: September 08, 2008, 05:04:11 PM »
"TE
When it was announced in the Philadelphia Inquirer that Merion Cricket C had purchased their current property the article said that Horatio Lloyd had Barker (and M&W) examine the site.

"Horatio G. Lloyd, of Drexel & Company, a governor of the club, has been the prime factor in bringing about this transaction in behalf of the club. Before the purchase of the ground, Mr. Lloyd had it examined by Charles B. Macdonald, HJ Whigham and HH Barker, the well-known golf players, all of whom have pronounced that the ground can be transformed into a golf course the equal of Myopia, Boston or Garden City, Long Island."



Mr. MacWood:

Thank you so much for bringing that to our attention. That is one of the best examples to date that newspaper articles do not always get the facts reported accurately. What and who do you think is a better reflection of the accurate facts of what a club committee is doing----that committee's report to its club board by the men on that committee or some newspaper reporter and his report? Who was actually there and participating through all this, the committee or the reporter?

I would think both would be potentially enlightening, and not necessarily conflicting. It is clear Barker was contacted by Connell. Connell's syndicate owned the land. It is also clear, as the article states, that Horatio Gates was the prime factor in bringing about the transaction. To my knowledge Connell did not play golf; Gates had broad golfing connections. Before purchasing the site it had to be deternined if the site was suitable, and as a non-golfer Connell would have no idea who to turn to. It would have been logical for Gates to recommend or pick the expert. As far as the syndicate was concerned their venture's success or failure was tied completely to Merion building the golf course, obviously they would do owhatever possible to satisify Gates and the club. 

« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 05:16:45 PM by Tom MacWood »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #538 on: September 08, 2008, 05:10:20 PM »
I would think both would be potentially enlightening, and not necessarily conflicting. It is clear Barker was contacted by Connell. Connell's syndicate owned the land. It is also clear, as the article states, that Horatio Gates was the prime factor in bringing about the transaction. To my knowledge Connell did not play golf; Gates had broad golfing connections. Before purchasing the site it had to be deternined if the site was suitable, and as a non-golfer Connell would have no idea who to turn to. It would have been logical for Gates to recommend or pick the expert. 



"Logical" for the seller to ask to potential buyer to find an "expert" to weigh in on the value of the goods in the transaction?

...would have been the first, and last, time it occurred.

Would you trust my appraisal of your house if you were actively trying to sell it to me?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #539 on: September 08, 2008, 05:37:31 PM »
JES,

I don't think your logic is right there.  Connell did hire Barker, but he had a stake in the process - he got the land that was left over for housing.  He hired Barker to protect his interests, I think, and MCC brought in CBM to protect theirs, at least on the initial blush when the deal was being put together.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #540 on: September 08, 2008, 05:43:37 PM »
Jeff,

You think it's logical for Connell to ask Gates (on behalf of MCC) to recommend an expert that might advise Connell on the suitability of the land he hoped to sell to Gates/MCC?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #541 on: September 08, 2008, 05:44:22 PM »
Yes it is logical for the buyer to demand their own expert. If you are buying home do you have the seller choose the house inspector?

As the article in question stated when the syndicate learned Merion was seeking a new site they gambled and secured an additional two hundred acres (giving them 338 acres in total). The success of their venture was based upon attracting Merion and Merion building their golf course. As they explained that is why they sold the land to Merion for half its value.

If you only have one potential buyer and that buyer will make or brake you, yes, you are going to do everything in your power to convince them, including (and especially) allowing the buyer to dictate the expert.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 05:50:34 PM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #542 on: September 08, 2008, 05:47:58 PM »
Jeff,

You think it's logical for Connell to ask Gates (on behalf of MCC) to recommend an expert that might advise Connell on the suitability of the land he hoped to sell to Gates/MCC?

Its more likely Gates told Connell he needed an expert to assess the property. Who paid for the expert was likely negoiated between Gates and Connell.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #543 on: September 08, 2008, 05:58:38 PM »
It is most likely, to me, that Connell found Barker on his own, with no input from the buyers, in an effort to maximize the value of the property. A corrolary to the home inspection analogy...the sellers disclosure is what Connell provided Gates/MCC.

My gut on this is based on CBM being on-site so soon afterward, and very clearly at the wishes of MCC.

Why would Gates recommend Barker to Connell if he had CBM lined up?



Tom M,

How can you speculate that Gates would have paid a dime for Barker?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #544 on: September 08, 2008, 06:47:27 PM »
It is most likely, to me, that Connell found Barker on his own, with no input from the buyers, in an effort to maximize the value of the property. A corrolary to the home inspection analogy...the sellers disclosure is what Connell provided Gates/MCC.

My gut on this is based on CBM being on-site so soon afterward, and very clearly at the wishes of MCC.

Why would Gates recommend Barker to Connell if he had CBM lined up?



Tom M,

How can you speculate that Gates would have paid a dime for Barker?


I didn't speculate Gates paid for Barker. Connell paid for Barker. I said I believe the article was accurate when it said Gates had the property inspected by Barker and M&W before purchasing it.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #545 on: September 08, 2008, 06:54:32 PM »

I never said anything about giving Barker or Macdonald design credit for Merion.  I just want to figure out who did what. 

David,

Then you no longer agree with yourself on the following?


"While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land.  Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan.   After the course was planned and land finally purchased, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course.   Immediately thereafter, the Construction Committee departed for NGLA so that Macdonald and Whigham could teach them how to build the golf holes at Merion East."   

As usual Mike, you don't understand.  My fault no doubt.

While the above paragraph is a summary and not meant to take the place of the substance of the IMO, I agree with most everything in it.  I might tweak the order of events somewhat, and would refine the analysis a bit, but the major points are still valid.  That being said, I remain willing to consider any contrary evidence, so long as it is evidence and not just propaganda.

Design credit is not my issue.  Getting the facts right is my issue.  You guys are so paranoid about design credit that you are afraid for the facts to come forward.  Strange.


___________________________________

As has been our constant suggestion for about five years if you want to know who did what with Merion East and West read Alan Wilson's report carefully. We believe, and Merion believes, and has for many many decades now believed it's an accurate reflection of who did what architecturally on Merion East and West and it's the basis of their history books.

I've read the report, and understand it.  Your version of what happened is inconsistent even with this report.

Quote
If you want to know in more detail that Alan Wilson's report explains who did what and where you never will know and either will we or Merion at this point. The reason is, as far as the club has ever known and as far as we've ever known specfic details of who did what and where on both courses simply was never recorded in greater detail than in Alan Wilson's report and now everyone directly connected to those times is dead.

Yet another inconsistency in your ever-evolving story.   You have gone from claiming that the documents tell everything about who did what and when, to admitting that you know no more than you did decades ago.   My guess is there is plenty of information to figure out what happened and when, but guys haven't figured it out.  Or you don't want to. 

Quote
Providing that you now actually believe what you just said above I believe we can now end all these threads on the history of the architecture of Merion!

Thank God! It's about time.   ;)

Not even close.   There is plenty to do once we finish off this introductory stuff, but you guys seem intent on dragging this stuff out indefinitely.     That is alright, the truth will come out eventually.   One way or another.

__________________________

JES,

What I don't get is how you guys have abandoned your long held theory that Gates had been in cahoots with HDC for years.  Not long ago Gates supposedly owned everything and called all the shots.   Now you insist that there is no way he might have been involved in choosing Barker?   It looks like you guys are bending the fact try to fit them to your argument. 

The fact is I do not know if Gates choose Barker, if Connell and Gates chose Barker together, or if Connell chose Barker on his own.   But we do know that Barker did a rough routing and enclosed it with a letter that was forwarded to Merion, and that month's later, Merion's thought this important enough to tell the general membership about Barker's inspection and routing.

Was the Barker routing used at least in part?   It is very possible, but I don't know for certain.   

But these complete dismissals (see TEPaul's posts and Wayne's) of the possibility are absolute nonsense. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #546 on: September 08, 2008, 07:09:37 PM »
Who paid for the expert was likely negoiated between Gates and Connell.



Tom M,

How can you speculate that Gates would have paid a dime for Barker?


I didn't speculate Gates paid for Barker. Connell paid for Barker. I said I believe the article was accurate when it said Gates had the property inspected by Barker and M&W before purchasing it.


???






Dave,

I think/hope you realize I am not one and the same with any others in this conversation for a few reasons...not the least of which is that I do not, and will not, do any real research on this. I tune in every few pages to see if anything is happening. When I make a comment, it is my own.

From my memory of all the different sides of this (probably flawed), I thought Gates bought HDC after this all transpired...meaning the land purchase for the golf course. I thought it was agreed that Connell headed HDC and personally hired Barker to inspect the site for suitability. At the time, Gates was simply on the site committee for MCC, no?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #547 on: September 08, 2008, 08:00:44 PM »
JES
Getting two opinions would be the prudent thing to do would it not; two assessments are better than one. The two hottest architectural minds in 1910 were Macdonald and Travis. Macdonald & Whigham were actively involved in design. Travis was not, but his collaborator at GCGC Barker was actively involved and quite a hot commodity. You bring them both in and you've covered all your bases.

The Philadlephia Inquirer article was clearly not written by a lightweight. Its packed with facts and figures, and some inside info as well. I suspect Connell or Lloyd or both contributed information to it. It appears to be completely accurate, and based on that I see no reason to question the statement that Lloyd had Barker, Macdonald & Whigham inspect the ground before the purchase.

I think there is evidence out there that suggests Lloyd was part of the syndicate.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 08:31:30 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #548 on: September 08, 2008, 09:21:22 PM »
"I think there is evidence out there that suggests Lloyd was part of the syndicate."


Mr. MacWood:

Part of what syndicate? Or more specifically which syndicate? 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 09:26:24 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #549 on: September 08, 2008, 09:38:30 PM »
Part of the land company.

Perhaps you should write another "independent" and "expert" five part article on how all golf holes that play through a depression must have been massively influenced by H.H. Barker.

Never mind about all the holes like that which came before Barker----I see no reason at all we all can't just get together with you and with your preposterous speculations and just act like that didn't happen and that they didn't exist before the remarkable Mr. Barker.

Can you cite any similar examples pre-1910?

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