Perhaps the only thing you need to understand and appreciate when it comes to the two of us and Merion is you're the one seemingly claiming entitlement to and virtually demanding access to the club records of Merion Golf and MCC, not me!
I've never claimed entitlement to their club records. If they want to play along while you guys make a mockery of Merion's impressive history, that is certainly their prerogative. Personally, I'd like to put this all behind us, but you guys seem intent on dragging this out indefinitely. I hope we are not still having this discussion in 2013.
I've never discredited Barker for anything and certainly not Macdonald. Merely explaining they did not route or design Merion East because others did is not discrediting either of them. And explaining that Willie Campbell did not design the original nine at Myopia because others did is not discrediting Campbell either.
In fact, you have no idea whether any of Barker's routing was used by Merion. And you have no idea whether Campbell did any design work for Myopia, Merion, or anywhere else. Why do you state in absolutes things which you only hope are true?
When some factually explain someone was not much involved with a club, for you to constantly respond by claiming they're being defensive and discrediting the subject is a bit suspect and perhaps immature, don't you think?
You have not "factually" responded. You have offered your opinion but refuse to back it up with facts. Your obfuscation of the facts provides a pretty good indication that even you know that your opinion is worthless.
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Mike Cirba,
Yesterday I asked a simple question about Seaview, and you not only rebuked my question, you flipped out and resurrected your rant about my intentions.
Naturally, this made me a bit curious about why you were so sensitive about Seaview. I spent a few minutes looking at the issue tonight, and it seems to be the consensus that at least the fairway bunkering was not done by Wilson. So why did you flip out at my suggestion that this was the case? One might think you had an agenda or that you weren't interested in the truth.
Also, there were criticism levied at the course, much more than usually appear in reviews of the early course.
Also, Ross (and possibly another) were brought in to bunker the course within a couple months after the course officially opened (they had unoffiically been golfing on the course before.) Their professional may have been involved with these early changes as well.
You have repeatedly claimed that Wilson was not further involved because he was tired and he did not want to be involved. Do you have any direct support for this or are you speculating?
Here is some of what you wrote most recently:
By the end of 1914, Wilson was exhausted.
On what basis are you saying this?
At the end of 1914, he resigned as chairman of the Green Committee at Merion to devote more time to business and family. There is no doubt that at that point he turned down other work, until Robert Lesley a year later put him on a committee to design Cobb's Creek, and then in the following year he made significant changes to Merion East for the 1916 amateur.
"No doubt that . . . he turned down other work?" Really? What other jobs was he offered? When? Or is this just wishful thinking?
And wasn't he still involved with the Green Committee beyond 1914?
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The way you + David portayed him in David's paper was knowingly misleading and disengenuous.
I've simply pointed out the reality.
Mike, You continue to throw around these insults and accusations way to lightly and without any basis in reality.
You are wrong. The description of Barker in my IMO attaches no particular significance on the 1910 date, nor do I make any claims about Barker's accomplishment's or reputation by this date. I have no idea where you come up with this stuff, but I will again ask you to at least get your facts straight before you question my character.
And to think that your friends fear that I am the one who is trying to manipulate the record!
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involvement at Mayfield, Skokie, Newport, Arcola, East Lake, etc.? I asked a simple question about Harban's work at Columbia. There are reports that he did more than you attribute to him. I'd say the extent of his work is subject to some question. . . .
A 1927 article:
So what did Barker do at Columbia? What did Harban do? . . .
According to a number of sources, Barker planned Columbia. According to Harban, after some miscues, Harban took charge of the laying it out and constructing the course. But it had already been planned. He wrote about his involvement and never mentioned anything I am aware of about planning the course.
Again, as was the norm for the era, "to lay out" is not necessarily the same thing as "to plan." The former must only be done on the ground, while the latter can be done on the ground or on paper. Barker planned Columbia, then Harban took those plans and laid out and built the course.
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Forgive us all for not taking everything you say as the gospel truth. You may think you merit blind followers, I assure you, you do not.
Isn't this exactly what you ask us to do with much of what you say? You may have a few blind followers, but I have faith that even they will eventually see the light.
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As for Springhaven, you think the photos depict inferior design, and try to diminish Barker by claiming that the photos depicted his design work. But the photos may not depict his work at all.
1) Barker staked bunker locations but did not build the bunkers;
2) The photos were taken something like 16 years after Barker staked locations for the bunkers, and
multiple designers/professionals changed the course during that time.
So you have little or no basis for assuming that the photos even depict Barker's work, yet you are still claiming that they do.
How is this not a blatant attempt to diminish his work??
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Merion Cricket Club did not engage Barker. He was never hired by the Club.
This was covered in my essay, but I think you misunderstand the significance of this. It does not mean what you think it means. After all, it is not as if Merion was not aware of Barker's routing.