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TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2008, 10:15:03 AM »
"Tom....caught the plane [strange term that], "


I can see you catching a plane but like George Carlin said you may not want to catch a nonstop flight because I'm sure you'll want to get off at some point.


Actually my "deep and all things considered", august history teacher, Professor Radcliffe Poopedysnoop, has allowed that civilization came first for the simple reason raw Nature never realized it was wilderness until "civilizing" mankind proclaimed it so.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 10:21:47 AM by TEPaul »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2008, 10:20:01 AM »
TE,

I think I understand Wayne's posts quite well and I enjoy the back-and-forth. You say Wayne does not "denigrate" MacRaynors...Since denigrate means "to deny the importance of" I'll agree. But Wayne sure takes his shots  with phrases such as "forced upon the land" and over-engineered look" etc. I just try to point out that Wayne seems to use a "naturalist grading scale" when looking at a golf hole, so a Raynor course will not fare well, but from a playability standpoint the courses get unusually high grades from golfers.

Wayne did not "denigrate" Raynor when he pissed on his grave, but it was not exactly a compliment...

As to the ridiculous attacks on you by those two, I feel very bad. I wish it would stop, or at least have it remain in only one thread so 99% of the board could ignore it.  

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2008, 10:43:44 AM »
"But Wayne sure takes his shots  with phrases such as "forced upon the land" and over-engineered look" etc. I just try to point out that Wayne seems to use a "naturalist grading scale" when looking at a golf hole, so a Raynor course will not fare well, but from a playability standpoint the courses get unusually high grades from golfers."

BillB:

I think you have that exactly right about Wayne---eg he does use what might be called a "naturalist grading scale" when looking at golf architecture. So, because some of Raynor's lines and shapes do not look natural to him on certain sites he doesn't really like that look. He's always recognized Raynor architecture does play well though.

I think the arguments arise with him and others when they tell him Raynor's lines do look natural. Perhaps they do to some people but they don't to Wayne and that's his point. (a participant on here, T. MacWood, once countered that even if some of Macdonald/Raynor lines may be straight and such, that they are natural because straight lines are found in raw nature too. That is not Wayne's point at all. He simply thinks of it in the context of the raw natural lines of particular sites and if they aren't straight he does not think straight architectural lines look natural in those atmospheres. Just a difference in perspective, I guess.

To me this should all be OK and it's probably why I created the idea and coigned the term "The Big World Theory"---eg a unique art form like golf course architecture (interactive) actually needs a wide spectrum of types and styles to prosper---that probably is one of the most important facets of GCA---it should never proceed down a road towards greater standardization---a road towards less standardiztion and more diversity of types and styles is a good thing in my mind, even if I too have my own particular preferences.

"Wayne did not "denigrate" Raynor when he pissed on his grave, but it was not exactly a compliment..."

It apparently needs to be pointed out again that Wayne never did that---it was just a joke but some people on here apparently don't have the same types of sense of humor either.  ;)

As for those other two, I have no problem with them about what they think about Macdonald, I only resist when they constantly tell me what I think of Macdonald and that I denigrate him in some attempt to glorify Wilson or Flynn or some such garbage. I don't put much value in much of anything to do with what they say or do on this website anyway so I have no problem telling them they have no idea at all about what I think of Macdonald or Raynor. As I realized last night I grew up on app four courses that were all Macdonald/Raynor. That's all I knew then and I loved them all in what might be called a "clear clay" approach but I did not study the details of golf architecture back then, I just played them and I loved them, particularly most of the template holes that I never even realized back then were template holes.

The idea that Macdonald copied holes or concepts of holes from abroad to design them never even occurred to me back then. Perhaps some of these people on here should try to get back to that thinking and philosophy and just play them and enjoy them for what they individually are.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 11:05:45 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2008, 11:16:17 AM »
TEPaul

Quote
Perhaps they should just let all that over-analyzing crap go and get back to the "kid" in them and play the shots and suffer the ups and downs of their wonderful time-tested concepts.[/b]

For once you've said something really intelligent. ;D

This is what it's all about, PLAYING GOLF, on a site especially prepared for that endeavor.

Think of a golf course as steeplechase course rather than a race course along Daytona Beach

The template holes bring with them an examination of one's planning and execution skills.

They are time tested in their ability to conduct that examination.

Like your dad's example of a hole baffling his group of players, the 13th at The Knoll, a Biarritz used to do the same to a group of my friends.

With the wind, the hole brought different strategies and probably heightened the element of luck along with the demand for proper planning and execution.

Even today, the hole remains a unique challenge.

Templates bring with them, the enduring architectural, and more importantly, the intended PLAYING values.

All too often, many lose sight of the fact that playing values are THE most important element in playing the game of golf, not the style and not the aesthetics.

Does it bother anyone that many of the bunkers in the UK are circular bunkers without much contour or free form ? 

The Road Hole Bunker comes to mind.
Is it less effective or less worthy because it doesn't have frilly edges ? 
Or less of a geometrical/circular shape ?

The 7th at NGLA is a spectacular hole, despite the impact of hi-tech on distance.

The angle and configuration of the green in concert with the topography and surrounding bunkers is simply brilliant, thwarting approach and recovery shots from almost every angle at every distance.

Should that "concept" be trademarked, restricted and protected by copywrite laws ?

Or should that concept be introduced elsewhere ?

To state that features, holes, routings and courses are inferior or tainted because they contain non-original concepts (templates) is absurd.

Westhampton is a great golf course.
Piping Rock is a great golf course
The Creek is a great golf course
Yale is a great golf course
NGLA is a great golf course.

So how and why do you denigrate them by attaching demerits because they contain wonderful holes that examine the golfers ability to plan and execute properly ?

Is the 3rd, the Redan at Piping Rock a bad, mediocre, good or great hole ?

Is it lesser of a hole because the 4th at NGLA preceeded it ?

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2008, 11:42:45 AM »
"It apparently needs to be pointed out again that Wayne never did that---it was just a joke but some people on here apparently don't have the same types of sense of humor either. "

TE

He didn't? You ruined my morning...Tell me that he at least looked for the grave and couldn't find it...
 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2008, 11:47:10 AM »

"This is our 'Redan!'" or "Doesn't that green have a Biarritzy feel to it?" or "That tuft of grass obscuring the green is an "Alp."

The Monet analogy used above by others is illustrative of this particular form of mania.  It would work if MacRaynor's ouevre of Redans actually consisted of "water lillies," but the irony is that none of them that I have seen (including NGLA) are actually water lillies, but rather other varieties of flower. 

Rich

Never having seen a Mac/Raynor, the above sentences sum up my thoughts.  Everytime someone splashes a photo of a _____  I think WHAT?  It happened the other day with a few people claiming the 10th at St Georges Hill was an Alps.  It just ain't so.  Its really disheartening when these "truths" are expoused and yet some of the main design elements of the template are missing.  Afterall, that is what CBM was importing, design concepts, not holes.  However, the idea that these templates are in truth not what they are claimed to be gives me hope and makes me want to see these old steam engines.  The funny thing is I have played one Banks relic many times and I think it is a good course (one which Anthony should have included in To the Nines) and with TLC it could be wonderful.  There is always hope and as you say, a chance for a good laugh, or at least a smile.

Ciao   


Sean, 

He was importing design concepts, and not holes.   But your "design elements" requirement is much more specific and formal than CBM's.   He did not insist that every single "design element" be included every time he used the term, but believed that a few basic principles could be used with an infinite number of variations on any course.   

I really don't get the point of your criticisms or Rich's.   

You really ought to play NGLA before you dismiss these courses as "steam engines."   

Bill,

There are substantial disagreements about the importance of Macdonald (and Raynor) in a number of different contexts and on a number of different levels.   As for whether Wayne and TEPaul have denigrated Macdonald (or Raynor) in these conversations, their past statements speak for themselves.   

As to the ridiculous attacks on you by those two, I feel very bad. I wish it would stop, or at least have it remain in only one thread so 99% of the board could ignore it. 

In this thread alone I have been called an asshole, a clown, a complete jackass, and probably a few other things I didn't bother to read.   I don't recall ridiculously attacking anyone, or even attacking anyone.   

I wish that you and others would not play along with TEPaul when he paints himself as the victim here.   Again, his words and actions here and in the past paint a much different picture. 

And I too wish the ridiculous attacks would stop, but they won't until more on the website stand up to TEPaul and anyone else who makes such attacks. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2008, 11:52:52 AM »
DMoriarty,

Why would you bother to engage in dialogue with someone who's NEVER played a CBM-SR-CB golf course, yet offers criticism of the holes on those golf courses ?

It's a waste of time because he has no context in which to judge your opinions or answers.

P.S.

I'd love to know what holes # 12 and # 18 at NGLA are fashioned after ;D

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2008, 12:39:20 PM »
"In this thread alone I have been called an asshole, a clown, a complete jackass, and probably a few other things I didn't bother to read.   I don't recall ridiculously attacking anyone, or even attacking anyone.   

I wish that you and others would not play along with TEPaul when he paints himself as the victim here.   Again, his words and actions here and in the past paint a much different picture. 

And I too wish the ridiculous attacks would stop, but they won't until more on the website stand up to TEPaul and anyone else who makes such attacks."



Mr. Moriarty:

There are two entirely separate issues here:

The first and most important issue to this website is; did we or Merion ever minimize the contribution Macdonald/Whigam made to MCC and Merion East? 

The issue of whether Wayne Morrison (or me or Mike Cirba) denigrated Macdonald or Raynor because he does not really like their style of architecture has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of whether Merion or us here on this website EVER tried to minimize Macdonald/Whigam's 1910-1911 contribution to MCC or Merion East.

The fact is neither Merion nor us nor anyone else ever attached to Merion ever did that to Macdonald/Whigam and consequently the truth is it makes no difference at all historially or otherwise if you and Tom MacWood just keep claiming we all did because it is just not true, it is not and never has been the case and MCC's and Merion G.C.'s record make that abundantly clear.

The facts are both you and Mr. MacWood have for almost five years now used two altenative approaches to try to continue to make it look like Merion or us minimized Macdonald/Whigam's contribution to MCC and Merion East;

1. You two just continue to claim we and Merion minimized their contribution and denigrated them even though that has never been remotely the case.

2. You two created a scenario that is a complete and total exaggeration of what Macdonald/Whigam actually did contribute to MCC and Merion East including this hair-brained totally unsupportable story you created out of whole cloth (including an attempt to move events dates around which is timeline impossible to do anyway for the obvious reason of records to the contrary) that Macdonald did a routing the club used for Merion East and that he was the primary creative force behind the routing and design of Merion East. There is no such thing and obviously that's the reality behind why you never produced it, never will and never can and the other reality is MCC records prove who really did do those things for MCC and Merion East, despite the fact you claim it was impossible for Wilson and committee to do it because they were novices which is total bullshit too, and it was not Macdonald and Whigam. As the MCC record shows, and has always shown (and we have never denied it) Macdonald/Whigam advised them on a few general aspects to do with the land and basic architectural principles and its potential golf agronomy and that was the extent of it for which they were thanked very publicly.

Why have you two continued your preposterous accusations and this fanciful story of a massively exaggerated Macdonald/Whigam contribution? Apparently it is all you can do to keep your names in front of this website.

No one believes either of your preposterous approaches any longer but yet you two carry on like a broken record.

The third issue of whether you are a clown, jackass or asshole is a totally separate issue as well and has nothing whatsoever to do with the accurate historical record of Merion East, that's for damn sure.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 12:44:19 PM by TEPaul »

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2008, 12:58:02 PM »
Gents,

I have recently (May)  been engaged to build a CBM/Raynor style National Club (ala Sandhills, Ballyhack, Sutton Bay) in the mountains of North Carolina.

We are currently finishing the Preliminary Design Phase (routing and design feasibility) and I must say we are having a great time trying to assemble as many of the great template holes on the site as possible.

Of course, all of you are candidates for membership.

Lester

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2008, 01:20:40 PM »
Lester:

My suggestion to you is that you invite MacWood and Moriarty on-site for a week or two. Obviously, there is nothing either of them could do out there to help you during the on-site routing and designing up phase but you may be able to help them some to understand the basics of this stuff and what really goes on out there. Neither of them have ever experienced anything like that apparently and it sure does show with their participation on here.

If you would consider this I believe it would be a great help and benefit to GOLFCLUBATALS.com for which the site would give you great thanks.

For my part and my thanks, I will come down there free of charge and personally advize you on three holes and hole concepts from my familiarity from the old days on Macd/Raynor courses of Long Island.

If your routing could use it and handle it they are:

1. A par 4 Road hole of no longer than 350 yards (ala the old 8th Piping)
2. A Knoll hole (ala Piping's #13)
3. A reverse redan (ala the old Links Club---undeniably the greatest reverse redan hole ever done).

You can buy me a couple of barrels of red wine if you want to but it's not necessary for me to do this service for you.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 01:22:58 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2008, 01:56:08 PM »
Tom Paul

I wish you could give it a rest.  If as you say no one listens anyway (I've heard otherwise) then for the sake of the website let it go.  

I've never said that Merion intentionally minimized Macdonald's contribution.  But they did misunderstand their contribution for a number of years and may still for all I know.  All the railing against me won't change that.  

As for you and Wayne, your past posts (deleted or not) and publications speak directly to the issue.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2008, 04:09:46 PM »
Tom,

I would like to buy you the wine.  Are you a "better" consultant before or after you drink it?

Seriously, you are welcome to come see the site if you like, and I would consider using any holes I thought may improve the course.  Let me know.

Lester

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2008, 05:40:39 PM »
"I've never said that Merion intentionally minimized Macdonald's contribution.  But they did misunderstand their contribution for a number of years and may still for all I know.  All the railing against me won't change that."


Merion has never minimized or misunderstood Macdonald/Whigam's contribution. It is all there in the MCC records from 1910 and 1911, Hugh Wilson covered it all in 1915 and Alan Wilson covered it all in 1926. Merion has never minimized or misunderstood it. At this point the only people who appear to exaggerate it and misunderstand it are you and Tom MacWood, and somehow I don't see that changing as clear as it is. The only ones who really need to give it a rest are the two of you.  

« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 05:43:48 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2008, 05:51:36 PM »
"Are you a "better" consultant before or after you drink it?"

Lester:

I'll let you be the judge of that. All I can tell you is I feel one way produces more dramatic results than the other way. It all depends what you want. My only caveat is I really don't do dramatic stuff in the a.m.; that's pretty much p.m. stuff with a lot of arm waving and such. The a.m. stuff produces some very calm, beautifully "tied-in" and subtle architecture and concepts. The a.m. stuff is also far more ground game oriented. The p.m. stuff is way more aerial oriented concepts and really late in the p.m. the aerially oriented stuff can get way up there in the air. Matter of fact, on one consulting job around here, I think it was with Gil, one of my really dramtic p.m. concepts got so high in the air it never came back down again. I don't know what happened---all I know is somehow I woke up in my own bed the next morning.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 06:00:10 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #89 on: August 28, 2008, 06:34:01 PM »
Here's why I go easy on MacRaynor - I have liked every course of theirs I have seen or played. How much more do I need to think about it?

Now, I just need to go easier on the MacDonald's and the Burger Kings........
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #90 on: August 28, 2008, 06:38:57 PM »
Lester.....TomP is great in any capacity that you can get him. He adds great thought and insight to any team or group and is a very serious "teacher" of the game [I've dropped the "student "moniker], especially because he has been able to "meld" so much knowledge from a diverse lifetime of golf related experiences......and all of it seems to be coming together in some kind of convergence.

Which makes me a little nervous! ;)


paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #91 on: August 28, 2008, 06:50:38 PM »
Nice picture Jeff....I was thinking about posting one like that but it was taken when I was standing over a subway grate and I'm not sure it will pass the ethics test.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #92 on: August 28, 2008, 09:21:13 PM »

Lester.....TomP is great in any capacity that you can get him. He adds great thought and insight to any team or group and is a very serious "teacher" of the game [I've dropped the "student "moniker], especially because he has been able to "meld" so much knowledge from a diverse lifetime of golf related experiences......and all of it seems to be coming together in some kind of convergence.

Which makes me a little nervous! ;)



Paul Cowley,

How much were you paid to write this ?

As TEPaul's Guardian and Trustee, I didn't authorize any payments.

Is there a slush fund I don't know about ?

Is Wayne Morrison lending him money ?

A full inquiry and audit will be forthcoming.

Lester George,

Forget about that Bozo, I've already bought my tickets.
See you in the Fall.


John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #93 on: August 28, 2008, 09:49:51 PM »
Templates bring with them, the enduring architectural, and more importantly, the intended PLAYING values.

All too often, many lose sight of the fact that playing values are THE most important element in playing the game of golf, not the style and not the aesthetics.

Does it bother anyone that many of the bunkers in the UK are circular bunkers without much contour or free form ? 

The Road Hole Bunker comes to mind.
Is it less effective or less worthy because it doesn't have frilly edges ? 
Or less of a geometrical/circular shape ?

The 7th at NGLA is a spectacular hole, despite the impact of hi-tech on distance.

The angle and configuration of the green in concert with the topography and surrounding bunkers is simply brilliant, thwarting approach and recovery shots from almost every angle at every distance.

Should that "concept" be trademarked, restricted and protected by copywrite laws ?

Or should that concept be introduced elsewhere ?

To state that features, holes, routings and courses are inferior or tainted because they contain non-original concepts (templates) is absurd.
Exactly!!!

Today I was fortunate enough to play Camargo for the first time.  It's my third Raynor (after Yale & Mountain Lake) and I did not feel one bit cheated by the fact Raynor adapted great strategic design principles to the land he built the course on. While it may be fun to some & annoying to others that you can pick out an Eden or double plateau, the holes don't look the same at all from course to course.  There is a lot of variety possible while using principles that work.

Raynor's courses make you think.  They make you play a large variety of shots.  They give you the opportunity to take advantage of course contours to get the ball closer to the hole than might otherwise be possible.  And because of all of this they are fun to play.

Camargo is a hilly, exciting piece of property.  I did not see a single place where I thought a "template" was forced.  The routing is very well done.  The course flows well and has a lot of variety from hole to hole.  I feel really fortunate any time I have a chance to play a Raynor, CBM, or Banks course.  If only more architects were so unoriginal.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #94 on: August 28, 2008, 09:56:10 PM »
"Wayne did not "denigrate" Raynor when he pissed on his grave, but it was not exactly a compliment..."

It apparently needs to be pointed out again that Wayne never did that---it was just a joke but some people on here apparently don't have the same types of sense of humor either.  ;)
Maybe I'm just unsophisticated, but I usually don't associate childish jokes about urinating on someone's grave with respect for their work.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #95 on: August 28, 2008, 10:00:42 PM »
Macdonald was not importing and blindly and mechanically copying golf holes, he was importing the fundamental principles of strategic design and applying them in new and varying situations.    His supposed "templates" were vehicles for expressing some of these principles, but even these varied greatly from site to site.   They were not meant as "templates" in the sense of any sort of mechanical copies, but were unique expressions of some key fundamental principles.  
I really think a lot of people misunderstand the term template.  It sounds as though the same hole was built over & over which isn't the case at all.  It's the fundamental principles that are key.

wsmorrison

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #96 on: August 28, 2008, 10:06:27 PM »
John,

You say Raynor courses make you think.  Certain holes clearly do and certain courses contain more of these sorts of holes than others.  But what is the mystery about the Biarritz?  The Short?  The Redan? The Eden?  The concepts are easily recognizable and the game plan a given.  Of course you must execute the shot called for, but the template concept (not exact replication) clearly takes away the uncertainty about what is presented and the way to play it.  Of course wind direction, distance and elevation are different so the shots are not exactly the same, but there are no strategic demands, merely execution demands.  Original holes tied into the surrounds adds another layer of difficulty...uncertainty.  This adds to the mental demands of a hole and a course.  Add in perceptual miscues and the ideal maintenance meld and you have the golfer thinking.  Identifying the best thinker should be part of the demands.  Tiger not only has the best execution ability, he is also the best strategist out there.  Give the better golfers more to think about, not less.  Replicated design principals (not exact holes) give golfers less to think about.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 10:32:02 PM by Wayne Morrison »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #97 on: August 28, 2008, 10:24:28 PM »
John,

You say Raynor courses make you think.  Certain holes clearly do and certain courses contain more of these sorts of holes than others.  But what is the mystery about the Biarritz?  The Short?  The Redan? The Eden?  The concepts are easily recognizable and the game plan a given.  Of course you must execute the shot called for, but the template concept (not exact replication) clearly takes away the uncertainty about what is presented and the way to play it.  Of course wind direction, distance and elevation are different so the shots are not exactly the same, but there are no strategic demands, merely execution demands.  Original holes tied into the surrounds adds another layer of difficulty...uncertainty.  This adds to the mental demands of a hole and a course.  Add in perceptual miscues and you have the golfer thinking.  Identifying the best thinker should be part of the demands.  Tiger not only has the best execution ability, he is also the best strategist out there.  Give the better golfers more to think about, not less.  Replicated design principals (not exact holes) give golfers less to think about.
Maybe I like Raynor because I'm not a what you could call a better golfer. ;D

You're right that holes like the Short don't have a lot of mystery in how to play them and aren't necessarily strategic.  For a player like me, other features of the hole such as steep dropoffs & deep bunkers add a lot of visual intimidation.  They make it tougher to commit to & execute a shot, especially if there's wind & the greens are firm.  The challenge presented to an elite player may not be that great, but I'm really only capable of assessing a course based on how it plays for someone near my ability level. I had very few shots today at Camargo that I felt were no-brainers.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #98 on: August 28, 2008, 10:38:13 PM »
Wayno,

I think you, me and many others convey the assumption of architectural sophistication upon golfers who really don't recognize the signals sent by the features which comprise a hole.

I'll guarantee you that the great majority of first time players don't have a clue that the 13th green at NGLA and the 18th green at GCGC are derived from the 11th at TOC.

I'll take that guarantee a step further.
I'll guarantee you that MOST players who've ever played those holes don't know of their derivation and that they're clueless as to the configuration and juxtaposition of the features at NGLA, GCGC and TOC.

As to the "short".   The beauty of the short is the pass/fail nature of the approach, and, the confounding nature of the putting surface on the better shorts.  Some, like # 17 at The Creek have been neutered by having the internal contours removed.  Others, like # 11 at Westhampton or # 6 at NGLA are brilliant.  Hitting the green is only have the battle.  Missing the green only compounds that battle.

Biarritz's are devilish to figure out and play, as are Redans.

Secondly, you erroneously conclude that the great majority of golfers get to play these courses ad naseum, and as such, their familiarity level negates the intended strategy because you feel that if you've seen one, you've seen them all, when nothing could be further from the truth.

The 16th at Sleepy Hollow (short) is radically different than any short I've played, from the perspective of playability, which, in the ultimate, IS ALL THAT COUNTS.

As to the mental demands of a hole, they exist every time you step up onto a tee.

I've played "short" holes hundreds of times, yet, when I stepped up onto the tee on # 16 at Sleepy Hollow, nothing I had previously played prepared me for that shot.

And, I dare say, that if I played Sleepy Hollow every day, the challenge wouldn't diminish in direct proportion to my increased play.

The same goes for Redans and Biarritz's.

The same goes for the Alps and Bottle holes.

YOU want them to be cookie cutter, play one you've played them all, but, they're not.

I've probably played my home course in NJ more than 3,000 times.
That's a lot of golf.  Would you say that playing 3,000 rounds on the SAME course should familiarize me with each hole ?  Do I not recognize and understand the presentation ?  Does this make playing these holes any easier ?

If it did, surely my handicap on my home course would be + 18.

You have a bizarre notion that repeat play, or play on holes of similar concept somehow diminishes their value and the challenge they present.
But, it doesn't.

The values on the template holes endure.
They endure with repeat play.

They are "holes for the ages" due to the values they possess and present to the golfer.

wsmorrison

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #99 on: August 28, 2008, 10:46:23 PM »
Pat,

I look forward to explaining my points that you obviously misunderstood.  I also look forward to correcting most of your own  ;)  We will play some golf (if my finger ever heals) and sit out on the patio of Featherfield Farm, watch the sun set and commence your education once the first cork is pulled.  ;D

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