David,
As usual you make a number of statements and complaints and yet will not give consideration that the very thing you are complaining about is what you yourself are doing. You make statements and put words in peoples mouths that are untrue, as you have with me on this thread, and when then take umbrage when they are challenged and denied?
And then you cry out in frustration “It is impossible to have any sort of conversation here…” when it is incumbent upon you as much as all others to create the conversation yet immediately you state it isn’t your fault but the other person’s. And how do you do this? By INSULTING that other person.
“No one will give an inch, no matter how absurd their position…” Sorry David, my position isn’t absurd. It’s Factually correct, historically accurate and it is YOU who is being absurd and not giving an inch, although I reserve that you have the right not to, UNLIKE yourself who by that very statement demands that others do.
So once again I must defend what I stated to you not in the nature of the conversation that you claim you are seeking but by having to DENY your claims of what I said.
You first begin by stating “I agree that Tillinghast turned out to be a terrific designer and was a major force in gca in America. As you say, within a few years after Shawnee he was a design muckity-muck. But he wasnt in 1906-1907… He wasn’t in 1909… He wasnt in in 1911…”
I agree completely with that and always have… That doesn’t mean that 1911 and Shawnee wasn’t seminal and that it can’t be pointed to as part of the major changing of golf in America. THAT IS WHAT I STATED. And I didn’t stop there, I STATED that it was in this time period which, by the way I DIDN’T define but believe is from the mid-1900’s to early teens, that golf architecture and course designing in America to a giant leap forward. This doesn’t denigrate Macdonald and NGLA, rather it celebrates them as a major part of it.
“Shawnee and NGLA were not designed and built "at the same time." NGLA was designed and built first, and they were golfing on NGLA before AWT started building Shawnee.”
Sorry David, but NGLA & Shawnee were both designed and built in the same time period as I have consistently spoken about. Secondly, Shawnee, as I showed in an earlier post, was most definitely being designed and worked on in 1908 BEFORE ANY PLAY was being conducted on NGLA! That sure sounds pretty contemporaneous to me.
“Surely in 1909 and 1910 Tillie was considering more than just the contours of the ground around Shawnee. He of all people was not living in a design vacuum.”
Of course he wasn’t, and part of not living in that design vacuum was his own discussions with his friend Charley during this very time about design philosophy and his disagreement with CB’s, and it is Tilly himself who wrote that he spoke to him and disagreed with him during those days. Of course, I guess Tilly’s own words aren’t good enough for you.
“It is imprecise and inaccurate just to expand the dates to your liking then say they were all equally responsible for the change in direction of golf in the US. There was a chronology, and you are mis-using the "formal" opening date of NGLA to blur that chronology and make it appear that Tillie and Macdonald were doing their thing at the exact same time…”
Sorry David, but I NEVER “expanded the dates to my liking” as you claim. The dates are there for all to see and so are the works of a number of architects who arose to prominence at this same time. It is imprecise and inaccurate of you to deny this. THAT is the reason I mentioned BOTH OAKMONT and PINEHURST #2 which were designed and built just BEFORE NGLA. BOTH were written about as major works BEFORE NGLA was. And yes, once more, the design of Shawnee was DEFINITELY NOT IN ANY WAY INFLUENCED BY NGLA & CBM. For you to even imply such, and you have done far more than that, shows that you have little to no knowledge of Tilly at this time and later on and certainly none as to the creation of Shawnee.
“I asked you twice when NGLA became influential in golf design. You did not answer but instead asked me questions about Oakmont.” Yes, you did ask me. Unlike the rest of your response I most certainly DID answer you. Just as with Tilly’s work at Shawnee and Ross’s work at Pinehurst and others, it became “influential” following its opening. It certainly WASN’T influential while it was being built.
Now of course you’re thinking I am probably blaspheming here by that statement, so let me ask you this. Name a SINGLE GOLF COURSE anywhere in America whose design was changed by what was happening at NGLA BEFORE IT OPENED FOR PLAY.
You can’t because there wasn’t any.
Which architect had more major courses designed and built by 1920? As I mentioned earlier Tilly had so many more that the comparison isn’t even a reasonable one. Yet it then begs the question that if Macdonald and NGLA was this SINGULSR seminal all-changing moment in golf course architecture in America, WHY WOULD THIS HAVE BEEN SO?
EVERYONE would have been flocking to CB’s door and not the large numbers that sought out Tilly & Ross and others at this time.
I admitted not knowing when Tilly first played NGLA or, for that matter, if he EVER played it. I assume that he did at some point. You make a big deal out of this and yet YOU yourself, despite all of your demands that I name this date, NEVER produce it yourself. WHY is that? Possibly because you don’t know and by the focus on my stating as such it somehow reinforces your belief?
I answered you, now you answer me… When DID Tilly play NGLA for the first time. Believe it or not this is a genuine question as I would really like to know the answer.
You follow this by the comment about me that, “You state ‘I DO KNOW that whenever [AWT] first played it there was no impact upon his design philosophies in the least…’”
You follow this with one of the most ridiculous statements that I have seen on GCA in a long time. “Such a thing would be impossible for you to ‘KNOW’ unless you were Tillie, and maybe even impossible then…”
It would be IMPOSSIBLE for TILLY to know what TILLY believed? You strain all credibility with that.
You go on with “You are not Tillinghast. You don't know.” You are correct, I am not Tillinghast. You are wrong when you state that I don’t know (and this is in reference to Tilly’s differences of opinion about design philosophy and course construction with CBM as well as whether or not CBM & NGLA influenced the design and building of Shawnee). I most definitely DO! I have produced Tilly’s own words on the subject in general and SPECIFIC and yet you ignore them completely.
You then blatantly and arrogantly insult me and Tilly himself. “As I should realize more around this nut-house, oftentimes we are more influenced by our adversaries than our allies. This is especially true when like Tillie one is trying to create an independent name for himself…”
David, you began these particular comments of yours by stating, “It is impossible to have any sort of conversation here… No one will give an inch, no matter how absurd their position…”
David, look in the mirror for a change. When a child has continuous problems getting along with all of his classmates it almost always really is that child’s fault.
You now close with two statements. The first is every bit the type of the MOST ABSURD POSITION that you accuse others on here of creating when you state, “But whether he knew it or not Tillie owed CBM bigtime. They all did…” Absurd… totally absurd. Tilly never received a single commission because of CBM. He never designed in the manner or philosophy of CBM he did so many more courses and more recognized great courses than CBM; yet you state that HE owed CBM “big-time?” Beyond ludicrous!
The other statement, “And if you think that Tillie and CBM were really that far apart in their views in this very early period, then I suggest you don't understand CBM as well as you apparently think you do…”
No David, I readily admit that I don’t know as much about CBM as many others do and have much to learn. Unfortunately, I DO KNOW FAR MORE about Tilly as both a man and a designer than anything that you can consider. I don’t have to suggest, I can unequivocally state that you don’t know Tilly or understand him as well as apparently you think you do…
Finally, agree or disagree with me, even doing so strongly is not just fine but proper and as it should be. The uncalled-for insults are not. You who have complained about others treating you in this manner are so quick to behave that way yourself.
It is YOU who can’t have a conversation when you do this…