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Thomas MacWood

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #125 on: August 26, 2008, 07:11:39 AM »
On a previous post it was mentioned that Peters attended college at Amherst. That would be the Massachusetts Agricultural College, which is also the school that Hatch (Ross's associate) and Burbeck attended, and where I speculated Robert White studied agronomy. I believe the USGA Green Section had some ties to that school as well. Peters may have had some indirect connection to the USGA, although the more likely scenerio is a connection to Johnson Contractors.

What courses in Eastern Pa and environs were built by Johnson Contractors?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 07:30:51 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #126 on: August 26, 2008, 07:36:08 AM »
As you know, my essay was on the money in all the crucial points:  Wilson did did not travel overseas to study architecture before Merion East was designed; he was a rank novice who had no idea to lay out and design a fundamentally sophisticated golf course such as the original Merion East.   M&W were not only involved in the design process from before the land was purchased until construction began, they were the driving creative forces behind the design of the course and ultimately determined the lay out. etc.   As for the unsupported claim of 5 proposed layouts, I have a very good idea of how and when those came into being.     

But how about we put all this behind us?  Let me update my essay with the more complete record and we can get on to Part II.   Part II is where the real fun will begin anyway.

David,

To me, your crucial points were;

1) CB Macdonald & HJ Whigham must have done a routing in June 1910 when they visited.

2) Because the Francis Land Swap for the whole triangle of land in the northern quadrant must have been purchased in 1910

3) Hugh Wilson had no experience in either course building, greens keeping, or seeing great courses of the time prior to Merion.

4) Hugh Wilson and his committee did not design the golf course.

All points were proven dead wrong.

You can spin it however you like but to call your paper a success at this stage is like calling Nancy Pelosi's speech last night "stirring".
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 09:19:26 AM by MikeCirba »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #127 on: August 26, 2008, 07:44:00 AM »
As you know, my essay was on the money in all the crucial points:  Wilson did did not travel overseas to study architecture before Merion East was designed; he was a rank novice who had no idea to lay out and design a fundamentally sophisticated golf course such as the original Merion East.   M&W were not only involved in the design process from before the land was purchased until construction began, they were the driving creative forces behind the design of the course and ultimately determined the lay out. etc.   As for the unsupported claim of 5 proposed layouts, I have a very good idea of how and when those came into being.     

But how about we put all this behind us?  Let me update my essay with the more complete record and we can get on to Part II.   Part II is where the real fun will begin anyway.

David,

To me, your crucial points were;

1) CB Macdonald & HJ Whigham must have done a routing in June 1910 when they visited.

2) Because the Francis Land Swap for the whole triangle of land in the northern quadrant must have been purchased in 1910

3) Hugh Wilson had no experience in either course building, greens keeping, or seeing great courses of the time prior to Merion.

4) Hugh Wilson and his committee did not design the golf course.

All points were proven dead wrong.

You can spin it however you like but to call your paper a success at this stage is like calling Nancy Pelosi's speech last night "stirring".
David

You must have a low threshold of proof.  IMO you didn't prove your theory, however interesting it was.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #128 on: August 26, 2008, 07:47:13 AM »
Glad I didn't wath any of the DNC last night!  Or, spend much time reading this now sequal to the Merion threads.  Merion 7 - gorrier (sp?) than ever! 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas MacWood

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #129 on: August 26, 2008, 07:59:43 AM »
Sean
What was David's theory?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #130 on: August 26, 2008, 08:14:24 AM »
Sean
What was David's theory?

Tommy Mac

Suck scissors.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #131 on: August 26, 2008, 08:33:39 AM »
"Sean
What was David's theory?"


Mr. MacWood:

To answer that question perhaps you should just read the essay again and try to decide what his theory was for yourself. We all have. Maybe you read it very differently than most everyone else apparently has but I guess that's OK too, as God knows you do come up with some very strange interpretations on most things you run across.

In this vein, I should remind you that you seemed to read Toomey's letter as meaning Flynn had only opened three golf courses in 1927 until Wayne Morrison corrected you by explaining that Toomey meant Flynn had three courses of action to produce published material on golf course architecture.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #132 on: August 26, 2008, 09:02:39 AM »
Sean
What was David's theory?

"While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land.  Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan.   After the course was planned and land finally purchased, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course.   Immediately thereafter, the Construction Committee departed for NGLA so that Macdonald and Whigham could teach them how to build the golf holes at Merion East." - David Moriarty
 

Tom,

Perhaps you can tell us?   Because since David first wrote this as his thesis statement in his white paper, it seems to be a moving target. 

First there was a routing in the Macdonald letter.   Then that got disproven once the letter was produced and included only vague agronomic recommendations and a hypothetical sporty 6000 yard mythical course.   

Then, there had to be a routing in 1910 because the Francis Land Swap had to happen then because the triangle of land atop the property was part of the initial purchase.   Then that got disproven as we found the surveyors map was drawn to scale and learned that land was swapped ALONG the road, taking from the top and giving back on the bottom.

Then, it was that Hugh Wilson had absolutely no knowledge of golf courses or golf course construction prior to 1910.   Then, that got disproven as Wilson was on the green committee for the brand new Willie Dunn course at Princeton as far back as 1901 and had played all of the best courses of his day throughout college and for the next decade in his amateur competitive days.

Then, it was that M&W must have produced a routing sometime later, only now the Merion Cricket Club minutes clearly show that it was the Merion committee who created multiple routings through the winter/spring of 1911.

Then it was that the Merion Committee must have gone to NGLA to learn how to build the holes that M&W must have layed out for them, only the Merion Cricket Club mintues clearly state exactly what they did on that 2-day trip where the first day they looked at Macdonald's sketches from overseas and the next day walked NGLA and discussed THAT golf course.

Then, in some scrambling effort to pull this thing from the dustbin of history, Tom MacWood started a mission to elevate HH Barker, only it was shown that by June 1910 Barker had almost nothing built that would have impressed the committee with his design skills, and his routing for the course was never mentioned or considered in the MCC minutes.   It also seems most of his jobs were "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon", exactly as he had done for Connell the land developer in an effort to entice Merion to buy his property.

To David (and your's) credit, we learned about Wilson's 1912 trip abroad to study golf courses.   It may be that this was his first trip abroad, but we will likely never know.

We have also since learned EXACTLY what Alan Wilson (as well as Hugh Wilson, Robert Lesley, and "Far and Sure") meant when he talked about M&W's "advising as to our planS" (plural emphasized), because they did in fact help them select the best of the five plans that Hugh Wilson and the Merion Committee had developed.

I'm glad David still thinks he got the critical points exactly right, but my lord, that's some stretch.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 09:11:51 AM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #133 on: August 26, 2008, 09:17:45 AM »
I should mention that this has continued to evolve, because you guys evidently never give up.   Not that it's personal or anything.   ::) ;)

First, after it was proven that M&W didn't route Merion, you tried (futilely)  to elevate Barker, as mentioned.

Then, we now see some attempt to debunk anything about William Flynn that's not nailed down.

Now, it seems today you're after the Philadelphia School, and if anyone on the planet has any sense they won't engage you there because it's a black hole, a bog, and a drain of time, energy, and focus.

Then, after telling us all for months that you guys have divulged everything you have, we have David now referring to his "Part II", "where the real fun will start."   

Gee yes...isn't this fun.    ::)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 09:27:24 AM by MikeCirba »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #134 on: August 26, 2008, 09:21:15 AM »
I can't wait for this nonsense(Part II) to continue. >:(
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Thomas MacWood

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #135 on: August 26, 2008, 09:29:30 AM »
Sean
What was David's theory?

Tommy Mac

Suck scissors.

Ciao

Sean
If you can't articulate his 'theory', your statement that he did not prove it seems superfluous at best. It was my impression his goal was to present a more complete and accurate account of the establishment of Merion-East; presenting many new facts and correcting the old story which was largely inaccurate and incomplete.

TEPaul

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #136 on: August 26, 2008, 01:44:55 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

It appears your inability to read the written word or to understand its meaning is getting pretty serious. Check out Sean Arble's post #127. In that post it seems pretty clear what he feels the essayist's "theories" are regarding the 1910-1911 architectural history of Merion East. 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #137 on: August 26, 2008, 02:18:38 PM »
It's been talked to death.   

I'd like to move on.   Why won' t Wayne allow it?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Flynn & Peters
« Reply #138 on: August 26, 2008, 02:33:44 PM »
"Then, after telling us all for months that you guys have divulged everything you have, we have David now referring to his "Part II", "where the real fun will start."   

MikeC:

Are you serious? :)

Well, that's cool too, I guess. You know me, I love humor on here, and that would definitely be humorous.

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