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TEPaul

Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2008, 02:58:50 PM »
"Who are the members of the Philadelphia School...the term is thrown out a lot but it is unclear who was in and who was not?"

The original Philly School architects are considered to be Crump, Flynn, Thomas, Tillinghast and Wilson. If one wants to call it the Pennsylvania School as Geoff Shackelford did in his book then one would logically add Fownes or the Fownses since they were from Pittsburgh even if W.C. had quite a lot of input into the finalization of Pine Valley after Crump's death.

But if you feel like labeling either school a modern day insinuation, Mr. MacWood, that is fine too. I'm quite sure no one really cares.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 03:00:35 PM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2008, 03:41:22 PM »
Tom Paul,

Another Philadelphia School classmate to consider would be JF Meehan and possibly AB Smith.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2008, 04:54:19 PM »
What about Toomey, McGovern, Findlay and Heebner?

wsmorrison

Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2008, 05:37:37 PM »
An appropriate change was made to the title of this thread.   

Tom,

Please tell us what you know about Toomey's work as an architect.

TEPaul

Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2008, 08:32:49 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

Would you not agree that in the last 24 hours Wayne Morrison has proven himself to be a far better researcher than you, and perhaps most of the rest of us? At least he has shown he knows how to read the meaning of a letter a whole lot better than you do (and probably most of the rest of us who viewed the part of it you posted on here last night).

And kudos to you Sully for asking Mr. MacWood to post the entire letter and not just a part of it when he assumed that Toomey meant that Flynn had only opened three courses in his career in 1927.   ::)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2008, 02:30:24 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

Would you not agree that in the last 24 hours Wayne Morrison has proven himself to be a far better researcher than you, and perhaps most of the rest of us? At least he has shown he knows how to read the meaning of a letter a whole lot better than you do (and probably most of the rest of us who viewed the part of it you posted on here last night).

And kudos to you Sully for asking Mr. MacWood to post the entire letter and not just a part of it when he assumed that Toomey meant that Flynn had only opened three courses in his career in 1927.   ::)

Is this really all it is about for you, Tom?  Figuring out who is the better researcher? 

I too am glad that Jim asked for the entire quote as well, and that we could all examine it and interpret it for ourselves.   I agree that this is really the only way to proceed on these things.

So how about it?  Why don't you insist that we all see the MCC info so we can draw our own conclusions?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2008, 03:12:47 PM »
"So how about it?  Why don't you insist that we all see the MCC info so we can draw our own conclusions?"


How many times have you asked that question on here and how many times have you been provided the very same answer? Maybe a dozen times? Or maybe more than that? Don't you know or can't you read or do you continue to ask on here for some other reason?

MCC and Merion have telephones, You have a telephone, right? Here's a suggestion---why don't you just call up either or both and ask for yourself if there is some reason you don't want to take our reason and answer after providing it to you endlessly?

Or here's another idea----anything we've seen that you haven't and anything we've said about what we've seen that you haven't seen just consider it as only our opinion of what it means, nothing more. That's the way we want to present it. You may consider this website to be the same thing as a court of law and if so you're probably the only one. This is a discussion section of an architectural website that is based upon people's opinions. If someone doesn't like someone else's opinions, so what, that's just the way it goes on here. If you don't like that or can't accept it, then do what we have done and approach Merion about it. Is there some reason you can't do that? Do you think someone on this website is stopping you? No one that I'm aware of is.

We don't run Merion G.C. or MCC. We don't make their decisions. If you're having problems with accessing  their records and documentation perhaps you should begin to ask yourself why that is. Don't ask us.

Our opinion of your essay has been stated many times before, most recently by Mike Cirba. We believe he's absolutely right in what he said---eg your discovery of a 1912 trip abroad by Hugh Wilson was previously unknown and it is a very good discovery and will doubtless become part of Merion's history. But the rest of the points, premises, inferences and conclusions of the essay including the inference that this must all mean that Wilson was too much the novice to have been able to design Merion East without having Macdonald do it for him is total fabrication of fact. It is untrue. The fact is Wilson did it anyway whether he went abroad first or whether he didn't. There never was a Macdonald routing done for Merion, a H.H. Barker stick routing presented to the real estate developer was never used or mentioned again and Francis' late night idea did not take place in 1910 but in 1911 and the triangle in question was always part of equation, it was merely added to slightly by the reconfiguring of the line of the road which was not yet built when Francis came up with his idea most likely in the early spring of 1911 and definitely not at any time in 1910.

Again, your 1912 trip abroad by Wilson is the only new and correct information in the essay, and it is an interesting discovery indeed albeit not important to who designed the course. The rest of your ideas are all incorrect and they will not be accepted by Merion or anyone else with a modicum of understanding of the architectural history of Merion East in 1910 and 1911. If you find and produce a Macdonald routing that would of course be a wholly different story but that seems a virtual impossibility because such a thing has never even been mentioned before, not by MCC and not by anyone ever and furthermore,  the board meeting minutes of who did Merion East's routings and when completely contradict such a notion. If the club had never recorded who did what and when this entire subject may be somewhat more interesting but that is not the way it was or is---eg they did record who did what and when.

And the last factor that you, along with Mr. MacWood, have always challenged Merion and us about---eg that Merion or us minimized Macdonald/Whigam's actual contribution to MCC and Merion East is also completely incorrect and a fabrication on the part of both of you. What those two did for MCC and the Merion East course has always been mentioned and credited to them---contemporaneously by the MCC board, in Merion G.C.'s history books and by us.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 03:21:56 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2008, 03:21:17 PM »
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2008, 03:22:45 PM »
Fonz - if you're going to call, the best telephone information service is 1-800-GOOG-411.  It's even free!

TEPaul

Re: Flynn's 3 courses of action New
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2008, 03:26:16 PM »
Congratulations Mr. MacWood! Post #57 is the most accurate one to date of what you've contributed to the discussion of the architectural history of Merion.   ;)

But it will be just a knockout discovery if you can figure out what those three golf courses were that Flynn had done in his career to date in 1927. Is your independent, expert research methodology and reading analysis turning up anything new we should know on that front? Perhaps it was some course with 54 holes known as The Action Golf and Writing Club. Maybe you can come close to proving that its principals were a group of publishers and such.

For that remarkable discovery I’d consider personally nominating you for the GCA Researcher’s Hall of Fame.   ;)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 03:40:20 PM by TEPaul »

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