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Ran Morrissett

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Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« on: August 25, 2008, 11:05:12 AM »
What is the best golf development done in the 1960s? Couldn’t it be Grandfather? Right from the get-go, power lines were buried underground and houses were kept far away from the playing corridors of the main course; thus for over four decades now, golfers have been free to enjoy its glorious mountain setting without outside disturbances from man. In fact, Spyglass is the only course built in the 1960s ahead of Grandfather on Golf Digest’s current top 100.

In actuality, it doesn’t matter when Grandfather was built. The real story here is how one lady’s founding vision was fully realized by creating an atmosphere where families could gather to enjoy the great outdoors.

Re: the golf portion, Ellis Maples produced his masterpiece for Agnes Morton Cooke Woodruff (otherwise known as Aggie), thanks largely to the excellence of his routing which made great use of the natural streams and topography. The course is an easy walk – at no point are there billy-goat holes and yet the golfer is afforded a series of breathtaking views. This isn’t a story of a course with pretty bunkers that photograph well and make for an easy course profile but rather one about taking full advantage of mountain features including low humidity. Unlike the interior and coastal courses of the Carolinas that hang on through the summer heat, the climate and cool evenings at Grandfather are ideal for bent grass, allowing the course to be maintained in a manner that promotes fast playing conditions. At 4,000 ft above sea level, there are no bugs either, not an insignificant fact.

To me, Ellis Maples’s work here far and away exceeds what he accomplished at the Dogwood Course at CCNC, his second best known work. The property at Grandfather was better, his routing is better, the hazards are more diverse, the greens (of which the 3rd, 8th, 10th, 12th, and 15th are alarmingly easy to putt off) are in a different league, the list goes on. Grandfather is the defining monument to the three generations of Maples that have meant so such to golf (especially in the Carolina’s) for 101 (!) years.

Beyond golf (and don’t forget to play the fun par 59, 3225 yard Mountain Springs Golf Course), Grandfather is a special place. The Mile High Swinging Bridge, the trails, the canoeing, the Scottish Highland games, playing Hnefatafl  :o – it’s all here. Most importantly, and the all-time surest sign of something having been done right over a period of decades, I have never seen so many well behaved children in one place in my life – the actions  :P of my two hellions (due to poor mothering no doubt  ;D) were not a highlight and I made them remove their GolfClubAtlas paraphernalia ;) as it was poor advertising.

Have a look at the photographs and see if Grandfather reminds you of any other course? It doesn’t to me – it stands alone, which is always a good sign.

Due to family, work and weather considerations, many of us play the majority of our golf May through October, which makes Grandfather a particularly attractive place to be a member. I have never seen Wade Hampton but it is impossible to imagine a better overall summer retreat to this Tar Heel than Grandfather.

Cheers,

John Moore II

Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 11:16:51 AM »
Very good profile of a very good course. I only wonder how Grandfather will be accepted by people on the site due to the 'minimalist' tilt. And Grandfather, and Ellis Maples in general, a not minimalist. Though I do greatly enjoy playing Ellis Maples' designs, certainly far more than Dan's. I hope this course is well received by the members here since its very well designed by a man who learned from the best, Donald Ross.

Ed Oden

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 11:48:37 AM »
Ran, thanks for a terrific profile of Grandfather!  It is indeed a fabulous design which I agree is very unique and different from any other mountain course I have played.  How do others feel Grandfather compares to golden age mountain courses such as Cascades, Linville, Greeenbriar, Roaring Gap, etc. and newer designs such as Wade Hampton?  Is the architectural evolution (golden age to modern) of mountain courses any different from that of links or parkland designs?

By the way, congratulations to Bart Bradley on having such a great place to call home.  I am certain he was, as always, a very gracious host.  Sorry I missed you both on your trip and hope to catch you on your next visit.

Ed



Greg Tallman

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 12:19:02 PM »
Ran, I see from the profile Señor Kletcke has fine tastes when selecting a favorite hole. #15 was far and away my favorite as well. Not a bad hold on the course.

Seems you had a rather nice July!

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 12:23:16 PM »
Ed, one of the differences seems to be the disconnectedness of the holes at GGCC from each other -- even those sort of in a straight line. Yes?

Thanks for another solid profile, Ran.

Is the course really a good walk? Agree wholeheartedly with Ran's statement about the tee to green walks being great but at least some of the green to tee walks seemed long to me.

Not sure I agree re the 1st.  That hole is no bargain in that:
fairway necks down in the LZ
must get that second shot up to avoid death short right -- but watch out long
could be on that green all day if the flag is right

Agree 5 is a blast to play -- but as on so many holes out there you are only half done when the green is achieved.

Would love to see a pic of the second shot at 6 and the green complex.

Agree 8 green is brutal esp with front left hole.

Front left on 9 is an invitation to a waterborne hell.  And yes there is a slope over to the right but I can attest to the evil nature of the mounds and bunker right of those.  They are the pond's handmaidens.

The crazy thing about 15 is how much we were inclined to challenge that stream.  As the pics show, coming in from the center isn't so bad -- but by the time you get to 15 you've probably managed to wrong-side yourself on the greens enough to want need that angle in from the left.  There seems also to be some distance-trickeration going on here as balls "through the green" were a lot more common in my plays than any of us, member included, expected.

Agree on 17: that is one trash-talking, match-playing spectacular. One of the worst holes around to have the honor...

Would like to hear more on 18 -- both shots I found intimidating, especially the second shot, which did not feel "strategic" to me!

Good comparison to Pine Valley.  This course is hard, especially for cave men!

Mark

Bart Bradley

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 04:26:40 PM »


Would like to hear more on 18 -- both shots I found intimidating, especially the second shot, which did not feel "strategic" to me!



Mark

Mark:

I think that with repeated play you would come to really enjoy the challenge of the 18th hole and find it full of strategy.

Off the tee, the hole is narrow and the ground slopes to the right.  The ideal position for the approach is from the left.  Because of the importance of position I often hit 3 wood.  But then again, the approach is highly demanding and so getting closer is so helpful.  Many members play to the front left opening short of the green because you can play a pitch and run from there and even get the ball to the back right portion of the green using the contours of the green...the green slopes hard from left to right.  I have made as many pars from the opening short of the green as I have from being on the green.  The ideal approach is generally not over the water (unless you have wedge), but to the center or even left center of the green allowing the ball to feed to the right toward a center or right hole placement.

What is interesting to me is that even after 17 fun and interesting holes, perhaps the most fun and challenging shot is the last of the day...

Bart

Andy Hodson

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 04:40:02 PM »
Ran,

Great to see Grandfather getting her due recognition. I enjoyed my two summers working there immensely.

However, with all due respect...I can't agree on the "no bugs" mention. I would guess you did not play later in the day on towards dusk. Because the "no see-ums" become right near intolerable then. And I'm used to the mosquitoes of the Texas gulf coast.

Wonderful place and golf course. You should have seen some of the greens before they redid them. Some were, albeit fun, pretty ridiculous.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 05:42:30 PM »
Bart

It doesn't help to have a gallery leaning over the railing!  It really is a solid second-shot hole -- yes, some of the intimidation off the tee is down to trying for position on the second shot, as you note.

One compensation is all the room behind the green -- not that chops like me ever see that part of a golf hole!

Your play short and left calls to mind a mirror image of the play on the former 17th and now the 18th at Congressional Blue. Come to think of it, Congo 18 is a vague mirror-image off the tee, as well.  Obviously, there are differences -- both both are strong finishers.

Mark

John Shimp

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 05:56:37 PM »
Ken Moore,
Not sure I quite get the Ellis Maples not being a minimalist comment?
I've always found his courses follow the land really nicely and his greens
and bunkering at some of his best courses recall the great golden age
designers.  I do admit that he throws in an occasional man made pond but
other than that he kept it pretty simple.  I've played grandfather, columbia
cc, boone golf course (very underrated although recently altered),  keith hills,
and pinehurst 5 (my least fav of those mentioned), and gaston cc.

Ed Oden

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 07:38:44 PM »
Ed, one of the differences seems to be the disconnectedness of the holes at GGCC from each other -- even those sort of in a straight line. Yes?

Would like to hear more on 18 -- both shots I found intimidating, especially the second shot, which did not feel "strategic" to me!

Mark, I think your first point is a really good one.  The holes are very isolated (or, to use your term, disconnected) from each other, but not so far as to affect the flow.  In fact, I'd say the routing (even more so than the greens) is the course's strength.  I actually find the isolation of the holes a bit disorienting at times, which is strange because if you look at an overhead the routing is a classic figure 8. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?board=1%3baction=display%3bthreadid=2342

Personally, there are a number of holes at Grandfather that I prefer to #18.  That is not meant to slight #18, but rather as a reflection of the quality of some of the other holes on the course.  That being said, I think the 18th is very strategic.  Placement and length off the tee have a huge effect on how to attack the approach, especially to certain pin placements.  For example, if the pin is on the right side of the green, I want to be as far down the right side as I can to have as short a shot as possible and so I can use the slope of the green to my advantage.  Hitting from the left side of the fairway (even from close range) brings water much more into play to that pin.  Conversely, to a left or center pin, I would prefer to approach from the left side of the fairway and might hit 3 wood to do so since I don't mind a little longer shot to that placement.

Ed

Ed Oden

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 07:47:45 PM »
Off the tee, the hole is narrow and the ground slopes to the right.  The ideal position for the approach is from the left.

Bart, what do you think about my analysis on attacking a right pin position?  Would you still want to come in from the left?

By the way, I've never asked you this, but do you prefer the front or the back nine?  Tough call, but I might actually lean just a hair toward the front. 

Ed
 

Bart Bradley

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2008, 08:35:59 PM »
Off the tee, the hole is narrow and the ground slopes to the right.  The ideal position for the approach is from the left.

Bart, what do you think about my analysis on attacking a right pin position?  Would you still want to come in from the left?

By the way, I've never asked you this, but do you prefer the front or the back nine?  Tough call, but I might actually lean just a hair toward the front. 

Ed
 

Ed:

I would actually say that the only way I would ever attack a right pin directly is if I managed to hit a monster drive...then almost by definition because of the slope you end up on the right half of the fairway.  If I am more than 130 back from the green I think I should always aim left (left center of the green) and try to take the water out of play (the ball will work right anyway).  So I think I mostly agree with you, it is just that I so rarely am in position to "attack".

Ran asked me which nine I prefer, as well.  I lean slightly to the back nine because 13 and 15-18 are all among the top holes on the course....clearly the front nine has the stronger par 3s but both of the back nine par 3s have killer greens.   Overall, I give the back the edge on the par 5s, a strong advantage on the par 4s and give the front an advantage on the 3s.

Bart
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 08:38:13 PM by Bart Bradley »

John Moore II

Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2008, 09:03:49 PM »
Ken Moore,
Not sure I quite get the Ellis Maples not being a minimalist comment?
I've always found his courses follow the land really nicely and his greens
and bunkering at some of his best courses recall the great golden age
designers.  I do admit that he throws in an occasional man made pond but
other than that he kept it pretty simple.  I've played grandfather, columbia
cc, boone golf course (very underrated although recently altered),  keith hills,
and pinehurst 5 (my least fav of those mentioned), and gaston cc.

I just think his style leans more towards the Mid-20th century style than the early 20th century style. His courses resemble Fazio and RTJ moreso than the do Ross, but they are not so into the extreme as Fazio.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2008, 09:09:46 PM »
Bart

What does the membership think of the opener -- that is, when they aren't taking on gullible first-timers in a match?  Too hard?

Agree re front vs back.  15 to 18 as you note are mighty strong.  8 and 9 are good but IMHO can't compare as a finish.

Re par 5s, agree on the front vs back but I might have liked the 6th the most.  The way Maples elevated the green resonated with me: a striking green complex and one that doesn't have to "steal" from the surrounds to earn that designation. If you get it around the corner -- but not too far! -- and have a shot at going in two you have got to be some kind of golfer to hit and hold that raised green.  Left and right are dead. Pinehurstian...

But laying up and coming in with a full wedge is no picnic, either, is it?

Mark

Bart Bradley

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2008, 09:22:58 PM »
Bart

What does the membership think of the opener -- that is, when they aren't taking on gullible first-timers in a match?  Too hard?

Agree re front vs back.  15 to 18 as you note are mighty strong.  8 and 9 are good but IMHO can't compare as a finish.

Re par 5s, agree on the front vs back but I might have liked the 6th the most.  The way Maples elevated the green resonated with me: a striking green complex and one that doesn't have to "steal" from the surrounds to earn that designation. If you get it around the corner -- but not too far! -- and have a shot at going in two you have got to be some kind of golfer to hit and hold that raised green.  Left and right are dead. Pinehurstian...

But laying up and coming in with a full wedge is no picnic, either, is it?

Mark

Mark:

I agree with your analysis of 6 but think that 17 is a better hole...the landing area is much more interesting and challenging than 6.

I don't think number 1 plays as hard as you do.  I played there twice this weekend and made par and birdie...so maybe I currently am off on my thinking.  Mark, as long as you can advance your drive you will have a short iron approach, and although the green can be difficult, it is actually one of the flatter on the course.  My biggest dilemma is whether I should play it as a three shot hole or continue to hit my driver in hopes of trying to hit the green in two (my birdie this weekend was after driver, 4 iron to about 20 feet --due to a lack of rain the course is playing hard and fast at present and I got a good roll off the tee).  They are not incredibly easy holes but I think 2 and then 1 are the easiest holes on the course and therefore agree with Ran that the course tries to ease you into your round.  Then you get to 3 and pow! that green really stands out and your off from there.

What do you think?  I could easily be wrong.

Bart

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2008, 09:42:37 PM »
Bart

I liked 17 a lot and its use of water in combination with the slope of the fairway is ingenious.  I'm trying to remember if I hit driver on 6 or if like 17 something less.  They're both challenges, but 6 you've really got to bend around the corner if you can and run it down as far as you can to get a shot at it in two, and that effort is complicated by needed to stop that tee shot short of the stream.

In that regard, both holes reward tee shots that, to corrupt a saying among divers resurfacing, go as far as you must but as short as you can.  17 requires more thought in that regard.

1 certainly was easier the second time around.  The first time my playing partner and I got nothing -- nothing -- from our fellow competitor and "friend" who knew the course.  Of course, he played caveman too and hit up the side of the hill on the left.  No worries as we play "Roman" golf: no quarter asked and none given.

Hey, speaking of Roman ruins, what's the hole with the boulder exhibition in the driving area left -- 2 or 3, I think? Boy did we play some serious snooker up there -- my partner even made a par from *behind* a big rock!

Mark

Bart Bradley

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2008, 09:49:13 PM »
Mark:

There is a boulder left of the 2nd fairway (called Grandfather's tooth).  Is that the one you mean...there are multiple rocks well left of the 3rd fairway as well but they are low.  To get behind the "tooth" you have to hit a fairly poor drive...my 3 wood is usually 30 yds past it.

Bart

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2008, 10:24:52 PM »
It's gotta be 3 -- marked as a lateral, yes?

Ed Oden

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2008, 10:27:11 PM »
Bart,

While I see your point on 18, I would still prefer the right side to a right pin because the angle created from the left is more downhill to a green sloping away from you toward the water.  To my eye, it brings the water more into play.  But doesn't the fact that we might approach that pin position differently merely serve as proof positive that the hole is strategic?

As to front v. back, holes 4 through 7 may be my favorite 4 hole stretch on the course.  And it is sandwiched by 2 short par 4s (#3 and #8) with devilish greens.  So I don't necessarily feel that the back is better although I do agree that the par 5s are superior on the inward nine.  By the way, maybe its just coincidence, but I have never seen the pin on #3 anywhere other than front, which is diabolical since above the hole is death and anything a fraction short will catch the false front and leave damn near the same shot.

J Kenneth,

I've got to concur with John Shimp.  The Maples courses I have played are fairly understated and clearly have similarities to Ross.  Maybe a little RTJ, but no Fazio at all.

Ed

Bart Bradley

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2008, 10:28:37 PM »
Yeah Mark ..that is 3 and a good hit that is pulled or hooked can end up among the rocks/small creek on the left....I have found that for some reason I generally get lucky if over there but the approach stinks from over that way.

Bart

Bart Bradley

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2008, 10:32:45 PM »
Bart,



As to front v. back, holes 4 through 7 may be my favorite 4 hole stretch on the course.  And it is sandwiched by 2 short par 4s (#3 and #8) with devilish greens.  So I don't necessarily feel that the back is better although I do agree that the par 5s are superior on the inward nine.  By the way, maybe its just coincidence, but I have never seen the pin on #3 anywhere other than front, which is diabolical since above the hole is death and anything a fraction short will catch the false front and leave damn near the same shot.



Ed

Ed, that is just coincidence.  You just need to play more rounds at GGCC ;D.  I don't think the other hole locations are that much easier....a lot of shots end up on the front edge of the green and then you have a killer 2 putt if the pin is in the back or even the middle.

Bart

Greg Tallman

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2008, 10:51:24 PM »
If #1 were the finishing hole it would be lauded as one of the finest. I don't buy into the ease folks into the game scenario.

Ed Oden

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2008, 11:08:58 PM »
You just need to play more rounds at GGCC ;D

Where do I sign up?  Actually, I think it is my turn to treat you.

mike_beene

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Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2008, 11:35:44 PM »
This is the ultimate punisment for spending the last few days in Little Switz at my inlaws and not bringing my clubs.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Grandfather Golf & Country Club course profile is posted
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2008, 10:12:29 AM »
Bart

Where was the hole on 3 the day of the club championship finals? Was it back or center left possibly?

Greg T re 1 as a fine finisher, I agree as far as the half par nature of the hole goes, but does the hole really need that pond way down there?

There's penalty enough getting caught on the slope or falling down to the bottom, not to mention up around the green, don't you think?

Mark

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