[Garland Bayley]

...
I find it interesting that you guys are finding this over watering thing to be somewhat regional, ...

Well, we know it doesn't happen in Philadelphia.
 

[Pat Brockwell]

Many retail golfers like it wet.  I can't count the times I've heard "I hit a perfect shot and it bounced into a terrible place", or "Why don't your greens hold?".  I once worked on a residential development course where the sales staff dictated watering (as in over watering) to a maintenance staff that had four turf managers, each with a degree ( Super, 1st & 2nd Assist. and irrigation tech).  There is a lot of pressure on us to make it GREEN. Garland criticized my course because he could see soil through the canopy and he felt his ball didn't sit up. We sit on the horns of this dilemma and try to stay sane. I tend to value the praise for fast and firm, but I get more if it is green and lush. In the end I just try to remember that it is a playing surface and there should always be some sign of dryness, somewhere. 

[Garland Bayley]

...Garland criticized my course because he could see soil through the canopy and he felt his ball didn't sit up....

Jeez, that's news to me. I thought I critcized for too much cart traffic leaving plain old dirt.

[Pat Brockwell]

Whatever the reason for the lie, carts (not my conclusion) or lean irrigation at the top of a rise, you didn't seem too thrilled.   You seem to like lush better that lean.  It's OK, most people do, that's my point.  It doesn't make you a bad person.  It just makes you (and everyone else) hard to please.  Golf is not an easy game, and conditioning a golf course is not easy.  If we wanted easy we would do something else, work or play.  BTW, Garland, my turf has filled in and I've lost some roll, but not to the point of mushyness.  Tee shots don't back up or anything.

[Garland Bayley]

Here is what I wrote about Black Mesa. I will let the readers come to their own conclusions as to my intention.

...At Black Mesa on most holes, the only reasonable way to get from the tee to the landing areas is to walk the cart path. Unfortunately, half the time the cart path is going in the wrong direction! As a committed walker, I also prefer to walk on turf over cart paths. The predominance of cart paths makes Black Mesa a cart ball course in my opinion. Sure it can be walked, but the joy is diminished. I notice that pictures of courses in Scotland and Ireland may have fairly rugged terrain to walk from tee to landing area, but there is often three obvious foot paths in different directions leaving a tree.

Another indicator that it is a cart ball course is that the scorecard does not even have a course routing on it. Why does it need one, the golf carts come complete with GPS and detailed hole diagrams. Furthermore, the fairways have significant cart damage with lots of bare lies.
...

[Pat Brockwell]

Garland, In your personal message to me,  you mentioned thin turf on high spots, (I checked).  You told me "In the areas where my ball came to rest on dirt, I could have moved my ball a fraction of an inch and been on grass.  From nearby, you would probably not even notice the patches of bare ground. However, since it was bare, it was the low point and a ball would tend to end up there. Regards, Garland"  Let the readers know how picky (and touchy) you (and many others) really are.  It's OK to be picky and hard to please. It gives me satisfaction when I do please you all, or you some.  BTW, we have put many walking paths in between greens, tees and tees, fairways, per your comments.  You helped me improve my course!  Thank you, you magnificent turd.  No really,  your comments helped. Regards, Pat.

[Adam Clayman]

My only complaints were the complete lack of water hazards (don't need them), and the fairway moguls.
With terrain this rough we don't need man made hills and valleys.

FYI, Those moguls are not man made persay. They were rocks covered with fill and grassed.

Clearly at 65 one should be aware enough to be able to return the way they were guided.

[Mike_DeVries]

My only complaints were the complete lack of water hazards (don't need them), and the fairway moguls.
With terrain this rough we don't need man made hills and valleys.

Doug,
Thanks for the thoughts on Greywalls from your friend -- he sounds like he would be a good addition to GCA!  I look forward to hearing your thoughts about it after you go.

There are some water hazards in the stream crossings on 4, 6, and 15, but those are typically not in play, and the wetland on #3 -- not typical ponds like you would expect, but, nonetheless, still there.

As to the manmade hills and valleys -- those were all there (lots of ledge rock in places) except for the beginning of hole #11, which was where we "stole" sand from for greensmix (it was actually wilder and bigger than what is there now!).  What is interesting about the site is that there was considerably good cover over almost all that is turfed now -- where you see open rock outcroppings, that is what was exposed originally.  It gets down to what is practical to do and leaving good functioning ground alone was the simplest and best way to approach it at Greywalls.

Cheers!
Mike

[Doug Ralston]

My only complaints were the complete lack of water hazards (don't need them), and the fairway moguls.
With terrain this rough we don't need man made hills and valleys.

Doug,
Thanks for the thoughts on Greywalls from your friend -- he sounds like he would be a good addition to GCA!  I look forward to hearing your thoughts about it after you go.

There are some water hazards in the stream crossings on 4, 6, and 15, but those are typically not in play, and the wetland on #3 -- not typical ponds like you would expect, but, nonetheless, still there.

As to the manmade hills and valleys -- those were all there (lots of ledge rock in places) except for the beginning of hole #11, which was where we "stole" sand from for greensmix (it was actually wilder and bigger than what is there now!).  What is interesting about the site is that there was considerably good cover over almost all that is turfed now -- where you see open rock outcroppings, that is what was exposed originally.  It gets down to what is practical to do and leaving good functioning ground alone was the simplest and best way to approach it at Greywalls.

Cheers!
Mike

Thanks Mike;

What I think Moe was saying indirectly, and I am asking more directly, is if the course is so difficult for we higher handicap players that we MUST just try to play 'safe' shots. I am certain you can see how, when lost balls and massive penalty strokes are extremely threatened, risk/reward becomes just WAY risk and rare reward.

I, myself, care less about 'options' than I do about the fun of trying things and occasionally pulling them off. Of losing my $.50 used golf balls I reck little, therefore a very tough course with the awesome rugged beauty I see in Greywalls exactly suits my temperament. Moe knows me well [thus he knew I would love to play here and at Lakota]. But many 'average' players will be daunted; of that I am certain.

I will pass to Moe the information on how the land stood and the course developed. He can appreciate that.

I look forward to trying this out-of-the-way gem; hopefully soon. Looks like great fun to me!

Doug

[Jon Heise]

Well, I sure hope Greywalls is dry and fast when I get there for Monday, that's the only way to play it, IMO.  I guess one bonus would be a hard and fast fairway is that the ball would be more likely to settle in a flatter area instead on one of the million humps and bumps you'll find there.

[Mike_DeVries]

What I think Moe was saying indirectly, and I am asking more directly, is if the course is so difficult for we higher handicap players that we MUST just try to play 'safe' shots. I am certain you can see how, when lost balls and massive penalty strokes are extremely threatened, risk/reward becomes just WAY risk and rare reward.

Doug,

I don't think it is overly difficult for the average or higher handicap player -- it looks very difficult and intimidating, but doesn't play that hard.  All of the older guys at the club would come through on tours during construction or grow-in and be afraid of playing it, saying it would be too hard.  In reality, they have plenty of options and love it, playing it way more than the older Langford course.  Also, please remember that it is a very affordable club and they are definitely not profligates!  If they were losing lots of golf balls, they wouldn't be happy.  With the one-time play Moe had, I can see how he may perceive the course, but in reality there is plenty of room for all levels.

Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Well, I sure hope Greywalls is dry and fast when I get there for Monday, that's the only way to play it, IMO.  I guess one bonus would be a hard and fast fairway is that the ball would be more likely to settle in a flatter area instead on one of the million humps and bumps you'll find there.

Jon,

I was surprised to hear about it being wet and mushy, as everyone I have ever talked to about the course, I have asked how it was playing and they always say firm, with the ball bouncing.  Certainly, there could be a large storm event with a lot of water that could make it softer, but that would not last too long.  The super, Craig Moore, was an assistant of Dan Lucas' before Kingsley and during KC's construction, so he understands firm and fast better than most anyone and knows that is how I want it to play.  I think any soft conditions there would be a short-lived anomaly.

Mike

[Pat Brockwell]

Garland,
I reread my post from last evening and want to apologize for name calling.  It was a poor attempt at humor. Sorry, Pat.

[Doug Ralston]

Mike or whomever else is up there;

How IS the weather on the UP mid-September? I am trying like mad now to arrange work, friend, and items to get up there around that time. Since I am unlikely to do this more than once, will try to play all the 'good' courses that side of the Bridge. Greywalls, Timberstone, Bay Mills, and Drummond? Are those the best ones? I heard vague rumors of a new one coming ..... is it built?

Intend 36 at GW. I still love those pix enough to believe it will be something special for me.

I think multiple trips below the Bridge possible for us from Cincy, so am only presently considering what I might play above.

Doug

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike or whomever else is up there;

How IS the weather on the UP mid-September? I am trying like mad now to arrange work, friend, and items to get up there around that time. Since I am unlikely to do this more than once, will try to play all the 'good' courses that side of the Bridge. Greywalls, Timberstone, Bay Mills, and Drummond? Are those the best ones? I heard vague rumors of a new one coming ..... is it built?

Intend 36 at GW. I still love those pix enough to believe it will be something special for me.

I think multiple trips below the Bridge possible for us from Cincy, so am only presently considering what I might play above.

Doug

Doug,

Mid-September is gorgeous -- mornings may be a bit nippy but that burns off really quickly.  Towards the end of the month you will get into the color change season and that is BEAUTIFUL!     Greywalls, Timberstone, and the new Sweetgrass (both are south of Marquette) are all about 1-1.5 hours from each other and packaging deals together -- you will have to check out what it is, as I am not sure.  Bay Mills and Drummond Island are at least 3-3.5+ hours from Marquette and Greywalls (Marquette is 3 hours from the bridge, while Bay Mills and Drummond are 1 hour, but not in the same direction.  I would play Greywalls twice and the Heritage (old Langford at MGC) at least once before venturing off to others.  Probably ought to consider combining it with a swing down through Wisconsin to Lawsonia and back through Chicago to return to Cincy -- plenty of other options along that route for you.

Mike

[Doug Ralston]

And I did! We went up in mid-September. We got an almost incredible package deal through 'Island Resort Casino', the Potowatame Indian Reservation, in which we played Greywalls and Sweetgrass, stayed two nights, and got a large array of freebie gifts in the casino for around $250. Call them if you go up there, or look at their site for the packages. We had a great time.

Greywalls is a MUST see. Surpassed all other Michigan courses we have played by a large margin. Wish I could play it more often. It seemed most holes begged for a ground game skill to be demonstrated, though you could also come in high. The greens, as all up there, were very hard underneath, so it was not easy to 'high ball' to get close, or even stay on. The course is a visual wonderland too. I loved the tee shot at #5. A blast.

Sweetgrass was a very good surprise too. It was two months open when we played, and the fairways and greens were perfect. The rough had yet to grow in quite as well, but that always takes a year or two. This is an open 'links style' that I suspect many here will like. I think it will challenge you from the tips, too. Definitely play it while up there.

As well, play Timberstone. It is a more old fashioned tree-lined course, but quite a superior version of it. More elevation change than Black Lake, but not quite as difficult IMHO.

Fun to put all three quite differing courses into one trip. UP is now a destination, for certain! Greywalls is the best, for certs, but the other two are more than worthy of a play.

Doug

PS: Glad to be back! Missed some good folks here.

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