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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2008, 07:47:34 AM »
Hillandale, a cool old muni in Durham, NC has 3 holes with two greens; #11, #12, and #13.  They put them in a number of years ago because the original three were very small, and the course sees probably 80,000 rounds a year.

(I'll bet someone else thought of Hillandale, but I might be the only person willing to mention it; it is NOT a course that would see the light of day on GCA.com often, but I love the place dearly.)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2008, 07:59:28 AM »
Jim, Could you go into the justification for the two greens?

thanx
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2008, 08:51:46 AM »
There are literally 1,000 courses in Japan with two greens on EVERY hole, and most of them stink.

On rare occasion, there might be a place where it makes sense to build two separate greens -- if you love both green sites, if they truly add variety of shots played, and if they both fit into the flow of the next hole.

The architect who I have seen use them most often in recent years is Tom Fazio ... he picked up the idea when he built an alternate green for the 8th at Pine Valley, and decided he could use the idea to make a very very small green for a short par-4 (or a par-3) with an alternate green so he wouldn't have to worry about wear and tear on the small one.  Shadow Creek, Pelican Hill, and Pronghorn all have versions of this hole, and I'm sure he's done it elsewhere as well.


That's interesting because the 11th hole at Barefoot was built for similar reasons....we wanted a small target green for a short par three...2200 to 2500 sg' total green surface...and decided to build two greens to alternate between for wear concerns.

I had them shaped cutting edge tough but fair, and the super influenced the owners to have a meeting because he felt there weren't enough pins....and I lost and we expanded them to 3,000 sg' or so.

If the Postage Stamp is a 10....what was shaped was a 6....and what we are left with after the changes is a 3.
A missed opportunity.

But like all good Phoenixes it will show up again somewhere! ;D
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2008, 09:14:25 AM »
I had forgotten the two greens on 6 at True Blue...Nice call there.

One of the holes at Threetops in Michigan has a double green.  I believe it is two or three.  A fellow built a course in Lockport, NY in the late 1980s/early 1990s and put two greens on one hole.  Problem was, the hole stunk and you played directly over one green to get to the other.  The pay-to-players who didn't get the concept started hitting pitch shots off the first green when the hole was cut on the second.

I believe (and Mr. Doak can confirm) that the reason for building dos greens on 9 at Pacific Dunes was simply that Mr. Keiser preferred one site, Mr. Doak liked another, and both were functional and changed the nature of the hole in positive ways.

Have you thought about expanding the green you already have, to add hole locations?  I remember reading a quote from Mr. Nicklaus on learning green construction at Sebonack with Mr. Doak, to the tune of learning how to build greens from the inside out, instead of another way.  Is the original green that bad?  If you build a better one, won't the members want to play it all the time and abandon the first one?

My suggestion is, expand and enhance the first one if possible and see where the membership wants to go after that one.  My suspicion is that someone played a hole with two greens and wants to force it into your home hole.

Paul and David, as I recall from True Blue and can see from Brainerd, it doesn't matter where you drive your ball in the fairway to play to the greens.  Unless you split the fairway into two separate alleys, you don't gain an advantage of notable value.  Arthur Hills designed the 17th hole at his eponymous course at Boyne to have two incredibly separate fairways (and teeing grounds) that gathered at the same green.  It's a nice hole and all, and certainly a conversation piece, but is it necessary?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2008, 09:26:49 AM »
The seventh at Ballybunion has an alternate green. The primary green is right on the Atlantic. While the alternate is slightly longer but a little bit sheltered from the dune. From the Ballybunion website.



From looking at the picture the knob at "C"  maybe less in play to the alternate green with greater distance. The knob is about five feet high. Last week, I hit a drive to "B" and a line drive into "C."
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 09:51:07 AM by Bill Gayne »

Scott Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2008, 09:56:30 AM »
#13 at U. of Iowa's Finkbine is a double whammy: side-by-side island greens.  (OK, strictly speaking I gues they are isthmuses, but you get teh point.  :P)



-also-

http://www.finkbine.com/virtual/13.htm
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 09:59:34 AM by Scott Sander »

Tom Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2008, 10:15:59 AM »
The antique Triple A club in Forest Park in St. Louis has two-
they renumbered but I think it's-
the par three 5th
and the par five 8th

Cheers, Tom  8)
"vado pro vexillum!"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2008, 11:05:38 AM »
Jim Engh's Creek Club at Lake Oconee Georgia has the 18th hole with three distinct greens.  It comes off as very hokey and over the top.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2008, 11:11:07 AM »
I would say that the twin greens at UIowa fit the hokey and over the top, with sadness and grief for Hawkeyes everywhere.  What is the difference?  How does one change the hole from the other?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

David Schofield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2008, 11:18:35 AM »
Jim Engh's Creek Club at Lake Oconee Georgia has the 18th hole with three distinct greens.  It comes off as very hokey and over the top.

If only someone had said that before... ;)

Will MacEwen

Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2008, 11:30:39 AM »
I believe Devil's Pulpit has two or three #11s - completely distinct holes, not just greens.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2008, 11:43:00 AM »
Jim Engh's Creek Club at Lake Oconee Georgia has the 18th hole with three distinct greens.  It comes off as very hokey and over the top.

If only someone had said that before... ;)

Whoops.   :o

BTW it would be legal for tournament play (assuming only one green was designated as the "correct green and only one hole ws used).  In regular play do you declare which green you play to before the round, tee shot or whenever you feel like it!  I heard unlike PV where it is clear which green is open and which is closed, that at The Creek Club all three greens would have holes cut and you could pick which green to play to ???  Is that correct?

rchesnut

Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2008, 12:25:29 PM »
MacKenzie originally designed the par 5 9th hole at Pasatiempo to have 2 greens, a lower left one near the road that is used today, and another one further up the hill to the right that disappeared sometime in the late 30s or 40s.   

Tom Fazio designed 2 greens on Hole 3 at Lowes Island in Dranesville (a good course) ...the lower right green has a pond in play for approach shots that drift right, the upper left one presents different challenges...it's a situation where I think both greens make sense and add variety to the hole. 

Rob

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2008, 12:31:44 PM »
Karsten Creek 18th Hole - Par 5.  One hole is longer and the other next to water.  2 different greens that change the hole from either a reachable Par 5 with water on the side or 3 shot hole with no hazard near the green.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Tom Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2008, 12:46:29 PM »
the 10th at Riviera?
"vado pro vexillum!"

Chris Ord

Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2008, 01:47:33 PM »
virtually every hole at rancho park muni in los angeles has an alternate green.  the alternate greens are pretty much little round discs that sit near the main green.  i think they are there in case work needs to be done on the main green.  that said, the par 3 16th and the par 5 17th are different, in that the alternate greens are actually "worthy" greens, and the course seems to alternate between them on a daily basis.  neither green is remarkably better than its counterpart.  i don't know if they do this.  if it was due to wear & tear, why wouldn't they do this on every hole?  and it's not a pace of play issue, because only one of the greens is used per day.  rancho park is a quirky place.

the only double green i remember being alternated for pace of play was a par 3 at the chevy chase club, just out of d.c.  i believe it was the 3rd hole.  groups would alternate which green they would play, to help with pace of play. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2008, 02:01:38 PM »
The 7th hole at Ballybunion evolved into the two greens it has today.

The original green was to the right ... a bit further right than today's right-hand green, right on the edge of the cliff.  Sometime in the 1970's, part of the green fell into the ocean because of erosion at the bottom of the dune, and so they built the green to the far left.  Eventually, after years of gabions along the beach, they became convinced to put a green back close to the cliff edge on the right ... but they've had problems with growing grass there so they've kept the inland green, just in case the new one suffers the same fate as the original.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2008, 02:06:35 PM »
#4 at Banff Springs has an alternate green.  I'm not exactly sure how often it gets used.  It looks more like a "winter" green the way it is placed away from all the bunkering, but I'm guessing there isn't much golf played in the winter in Banff.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2008, 02:13:23 PM »
#16 on Old White at The Greenbrier. Been a long time, not sure if still has two greens.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2008, 02:23:48 PM »
2 at Poppy Hills used to have two seperate greens.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

R_Paulis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2008, 02:39:39 PM »
Santa Barbara's La Cumbre #13 (?) par 3 with an island green option. I lived next to it for a couple of years and got the sense the members preferred the non-island green. 

Stu Grant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2008, 02:51:23 PM »
Shephard's Hollow in Clarkston, Michigan has two greens on its par-4 22nd hole (it's a 27 hole course).  Both times I've played it the green-in-play has been the left green which is wildly undulating.   

Here's the link to the map of that hole:

http://www.shepherdshollow.com/?page=5&hole=22

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2008, 03:51:56 PM »
#13 at California GC in Cincinnati, Ohio. California is a non-descript muni from the WPA/CCC era, Bill Diddel designed it I think, routed around a waste water treatment plant. It is as quirky as you can find from a design standpoint.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 04:00:33 PM by Rich Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2008, 04:10:59 PM »
Shephard's Hollow in Clarkston, Michigan has two greens on its par-4 22nd hole (it's a 27 hole course).  Both times I've played it the green-in-play has been the left green which is wildly undulating.   

Here's the link to the map of that hole:

http://www.shepherdshollow.com/?page=5&hole=22

It was on the left the one time I played it as well.  That green is a SOB for sure.


Bob Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Holes with Two Greens
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2008, 08:34:10 PM »
The 18th Glenmaura national, near Scranton, Pa.

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