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David Stamm

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Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« on: August 21, 2008, 01:41:26 PM »
Vijay Singh's comments about OH during the PGA after his Pro Am round at Ridgewood (as reported by Steve Elling):


PARAMUS, N.J. -- Time heals all wounds, eh?


Or maybe it's time wounds all heels, depending on your opinion of Vijay Singh.

Another week and another tournament later, at least one prominent player was still feeling the sting from the final major championship of the year, played two weekends ago at Oakland Hills.

Without prompting, the world's fifth-ranked player on Wednesday fired another broadside blast at the harsh setup used at the 90th PGA Championship, ripping the course for being too severe in spots.

Singh had just completed his pro-am round at The Barclays, to be played this year for the first time at Ridgewood Country Club, when he began taking more verbal shots at the host PGA, which heard catcalls from angry players all week during the event.

"I think, finally, we are playing a good golf course," Singh said of Ridgewood.

Ouch. Within moments, he made it doubly clear that he was both praising Ridgewood and pasting Oakland Hills.

Two things to consider when weighing Singh's considered opinion: First, he is a former PGA Championship winner, so he's not going to launch into a dated diatribe without good reason. Then again, he was credited with five-putting one of Oakland Hills' undulating greens, which Jack Nicklaus once characterized as the toughest in golf.

"From tee to green that's one of the best golf courses I have played, but it's a disgrace to have greens like that on a golf course that good," Singh said of Oakland Hills, site of multiple U.S. Opens and PGAs in years past, not to mention the 2004 Ryder Cup.

"If the members were to play the speed of the greens we played, they would all quit," he said. "I don't think there would be any members left.

"I don't know what the PGA was going at. I don't think they could ever hold another golf tournament on that course if the greens are like that."

The course underwent a tweaking and lengthening three years ago by designer Rees Jones, but the greens were essentially untouched. Maybe they should have been bulldozed, too, Singh said.

"They should get somebody to redesign those greens," he groused. "From tee to green it's one of the best golf courses you can ever play. But on the greens, it was just a disaster."

Then again, eventual winner Padraig Harrington was credited with one-putting 10 of the final 13 holes during his memorable rally in the final round, so somebody surely had them figured out. -(end of article)


So can we assume that others may have felt the same? Is OH in danger of having the last bit of Ross (the greens) removed? Is this sour grapes by a player that has always been a poor putter?




"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

PThomas

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2008, 01:56:17 PM »
first time i 've heard someone diss the greens and praise the rest of the course...usually its the other way around
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Matt_Ward

Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2008, 01:59:43 PM »
David:

Kerry Haigh and the field team at OH/S have to take a legitimate hit for the way the course was prepared for the PGA.

Vijay is often hammered but his comments this time reflect arrowlike accuracy.

Ridgewood is set-up properly for an event with the world's top players. In years past Haigh allowed the players to play without featuring draconian overkill as seen at the PGA. Watch this week's event and see what transpires -- a major difference indeed.


JLahrman

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2008, 02:00:09 PM »
Why don't they just slow the greens down a little?  Would that be so bad?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2008, 02:02:03 PM »
OK, knock VJ out of the running for one of the supposed greats challenging Tiger. As Jack used to say he was always glad to hear these types of complaints, because that meant one less competitor for greatness and winning majors.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil_the_Author

Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2008, 02:05:36 PM »
Vijay saying, ""I think, finally, we are playing a good golf course," Singh said of Ridgewood..." sounds more like He is praising Tillinghast and Ridgewood rather than putting down Oakland Hills...

But that's just me!  ;D
 

CJ Carder

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2008, 04:27:28 PM »
I always find these comments questionable...

1.  He did 5-putt #9, so right there he's already lost credibility.

2.  Even though I know it's these guys' livelihoods, they are still playing golf and making a ton of money at it.  So you had a bad week, sorry.

3.  At least 60 guys, including Harrington, and even Garcia, didn't seem to have a huge problem with it.  If that type of comment was coming from Harrington, I might wonder a bit, or at least give it some more though.  But Vijay missed the cut.... badly.

4.  It's a major, it's supposed to be hard.  I know it's cliche, but it's true.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2008, 04:32:14 PM »
Is OH in danger of having the last bit of Ross (the greens) removed? Is this sour grapes by a player that has always been a poor putter?

RTJ at the very least expanded the greens, and may have recontoured several, if I recall correctly.  There may be a few forward tees left that are Ross', plus, of course, the routing.  And, maybe some of the greens.

Somewhat related, but I happened to discuss gca with two well known touring pros on a Dallas area course today.  The only comments from each were on the greens - one wanted me to look at a green with a subtle tier (the kind TD opined on here on the "middle is the toughest part of the green thread) that kept him from getting chips from the bail out area anywhere near the flag.  The other mentioned the "ridiculous" contours of another green and that yet another green was already toned down.

It goes back to the old debate of what a Tour Pro wants in a course - and basically, they think that since they are good enough, the course itself shouldn't stop them from getting close to the pin with a good shot.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 04:36:38 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2008, 04:57:08 PM »
Every player plays the same golf course.  Course conditions deliver the same general push or pull to all of them.

I will never understand players who act they they were the only competitor on any given day.

WW

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 05:26:53 PM »
I don't think is speaks poorly for OH that Vijay struggled.  I think it speaks poorly for Firestone that Vijay was able to win despite such awful putting.

Matt_Ward

Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2008, 08:16:55 PM »
Guys hold the phone please.

Vijay has won 30+ tournaments in a career. Also three majors.

The idea that people who play badly have no credibility with any comments that comes from going through what they experienced is silly. To a man the field of players was harping about what the course offered for the first 36 holes of the event.

OH/S is a marvelous course but fortunately rains came in the nick of time or the entire field would have marched to the beat of endless bogeys and double bogeys.

I fully admit Vijay at times has the Roberto Duran affliction -- the hands of stone -- but to simply shoot the messenger because his message and overall standing in the tournament were not present is a bit much for me.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2008, 12:40:11 AM »
Personally, when I played there, I thought they were Ross's best greens. What do I know?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jason Topp

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2008, 12:48:34 AM »
I thought contoured greens favored bad putters?!!!

Dan King

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2008, 01:18:04 AM »
Unless you got permission from the copyright holder, please don't post articles like the above. A mention of the article with a few highlights and a link to the article works better for this site and the copyright holder.

Cheers,
Dan King
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TEPaul

Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2008, 11:28:50 AM »
In my opinion, Vijay's blast of the playability of OH's greens is a good thing. It's good to see someone like that really express his unadulterated opinion. However, his suggestion that the greens of OH should be bulldozed is ridiculous. Any set of greens have to pretty much determine a greenspeed where they are challenging but not over the top and that can be quite different from course to course. Obviously the people who "set-up" OH didn't understand that well enough.

Richard Choi

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2008, 01:10:07 PM »
Personally, when I played there, I thought they were Ross's best greens. What do I know?

Well, in Vijay's defense, what is perfectly great at everyday speed can be unplayable at the speed major championships seem to prefer.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:16:50 PM by Richard Choi »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2008, 01:17:23 PM »
Personally, when I played there, I thought they were Ross's best greens. What do I know?

Well, in Vijay's defense, what is perfectly great at everyday speed can be unplayable at the speed major championship seem to prefer.

Well, in Cary's defense, Padraig and Sergio didn't seem to have a problem.

Did we ever hear Tom Watson or Lee Trevino spout off with such sour grapes?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2008, 01:22:59 PM »

Well, in Cary's defense, Padraig and Sergio didn't seem to have a problem.

Did we ever hear Tom Watson or Lee Trevino spout off with such sour grapes?


How do you know Padraig and Sergio didn't have problems? Maybe they hated the greens too, but just chose to shut up (if you look at the backlash against Vijay, I would probably refrain in the future as well).

And if Ross was alive, do you think he would be happy about the green speed at OH during the PGA Championship? I tend to think not.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2008, 01:50:30 PM »
Richard,

The point of my post was the issue of greats to challenge Tiger. Vijay has been put forward as one of the challengers. It seems that if you are a great that will challenge Tiger you understand that everyone played the same course, so you really have no complaint with anything other than your own skills which you need to work on. Spouting off does not speak well about your mental ablity to attain greatness.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2008, 02:18:44 PM »
Personally, I don't care much about Vijay's or anyone else on tour complaining about the course setup. They are a pampered bunch and more pampered you are, more likely that you will complain about anything.

What I do care about is architectural integrity. I believe that Vijay is right in one sense, these greens were never meant to be played at the kind of speed we saw at the PGA Championship. I would much prefer if PGA would make the greens slower even if that resulted in better scores.

I worry because after the tournament, there were grumblings about how certain greens may need to be flattened out for OH to host another major. And that to me is preposterous. Just because you want to play these greens at faster speed than they were designed for is not a good excuse to alther those greens. That is just obscene.

We really should encourage people like PGA to allow greens to be at a proper speed, to really let the architects talent shine on golf's grandest stage.

Michael Blake

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2008, 02:31:12 PM »
I LOVE it when these guys complain.

It shows they're human and not just robots with pretty swings speaking from a talking points memo from their P.R firm.




And I'll bet lots of guys didn't like it (even if they played well)  but chose to not speak up.  Wimps.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2008, 02:33:10 PM »
Great take Michael!

The complainers are the strongmen, the noncomplainers are wimps. I recon Sergio will soon be recognized for the true macho man he is.
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dean Stokes

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Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2008, 02:50:22 PM »
Richard,

The point of my post was the issue of greats to challenge Tiger. Vijay has been put forward as one of the challengers. It seems that if you are a great that will challenge Tiger you understand that everyone played the same course, so you really have no complaint with anything other than your own skills which you need to work on. Spouting off does not speak well about your mental ablity to attain greatness.

Garland, did Vijay not become #1 ranked player in the world while Tiger was out there playing full time? I believe he did but I'm not sure. How many other players since Tiger came out on the tour have achieved that?

Vijay speaks thoughtfully and rarely does he complain. He is one of the most liked golfer out there by the other players and I am fairly sure his thoughts hold some value.

Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2008, 04:23:54 PM »
I got to thinking about this at lunch.  Earlier, someone had posted some stats that said Torrey Pines actually played tougher.  I wonder if the greens at OH played that much tougher?

Both tourneys had winning scores just under par, as usual.  That alone would suggest that the greens couldn't have prevented the better players of the week from scoring. In fact, with the rough also being brutal at OH, if the scores were nearly equal to TP, wouldn't that suggest the greens actually didn't putt as hard?

Even if they did, is it a crime for tour pros to struggle to shoot par via hard greens, vs., say, deep roughs or narrow fw? Seems like some variety among major set ups would be a good thing.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Singh's comments about Oakland Hills
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2008, 05:29:54 PM »
Dean,

Vijay got to number 1 while Tiger was undergoing swing changes. He was not getting there before Tiger embarked on that attempt to get better. Vijay would impress me more if he would say I putted poorly under difficult conditions and I have set up a program with X to improve.

IMO it is not thoughtful to make public complaints after you have exposed your failings. A thoughtful person would realize that kind of display would fall on mostly deaf ears.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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