Flynn & Peters

[Thomas MacWood]

The first mention of Wm Flynn as a golf architecture came in advertisements for the firm of Flynn & Peters in 1916. Who was Peters?

[wsmorrison]

We know all about him, from his daytime job, to his political post to his friendship with Flynn.  However, some of the information came directly from Flynn's daughter.  I'm sure you will give that little consideration.  Sorry, but your gag order prevents us from answering your question.  Who else do you expect an answer from?  I'm sure you can locate his census records.  That should help.  It is all in the Flynn book and has been for several years.  If only you had a more recent version...but alas your troublesome use of the obsolete one denies you this access.  Patience and you can borrow the set from Dr. Hurdzan when it is finally published.  Or you could come to Merion GC and read all about it in the archives.  Why don't you?  I would enjoy meeting you.

[Jed Peters]

That was me.

I am really old.

[Thomas MacWood]

Gag order? Are you waiting for permission from the Peters family before discussing on GCA?

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Whew! I was just about to answer Mr. MacWood and then I noticed your post. I forgot about his pledge on here not to help us with any information he has so I suppose what's good for the Quid is good for the Quo, huh?

But in the spirit of generosity I see no reason not to throw him a few minor bones on Peter's family's deep background. Mr. MaWood seems to like deep background information on people's generational families.

So, Mr. MacWood:

The Peters family made quite a name for themselves as launderers in the 18th and 19th centuries in the world of merchant vessels primarily in the China trade out of Boston. They also became quite well known as basket weavers and the family thinks they have roots to Egyptian reed farmers along the Nile in the 2nd century B.C. It was fairly common knowledge that Peter's mother, or perhaps it was his great aunt, was Captain Ahab's mistress at sea.

In the first decade of the 20th century it was believed that Peters took up with Herbert Leeds and the two may've lived together for a few months at the Somerset Club in Boston. This is believed to have caused the split between Leeds and his male companion, James Parker. Parker threatened to cut Peter's balls off and so he apparently did the sensible thing and moved to Philadelphia.

Therefore, because of Peter's short but extremely close relationship with Leeds it is actually possible that Peter's may've designed the second nine at Myopia or at least he may've been a strong architectural influence on Leed during the design and construction of the second nine at Myopia or at least its improvement.

Some even think Peter's did a stick routing of the reportedly truly remarkable Merion South that was designed but for some odd reason was never built.

Flynn's good friend Peters could also really sing and dance so it's a very good bet that Bernadette Peters is his granddaughter, and I have compelling evidence that Peter's nephew and Dick Wilson may've had the same school principal at different times, but nevertheless that's quite the architectural connection, don't you think?

[DMoriarty]

We know all about him, from his daytime job, to his political post to his friendship with Flynn.  However, some of the information came directly from Flynn's daughter.  I'm sure you will give that little consideration.  Sorry, but your gag order prevents us from answering your question.  Who else do you expect an answer from?  I'm sure you can locate his census records.  That should help.  It is all in the Flynn book and has been for several years.  If only you had a more recent version...but alas your troublesome use of the obsolete one denies you this access.  Patience and you can borrow the set from Dr. Hurdzan when it is finally published.  Or you could come to Merion GC and read all about it in the archives.  Why don't you?  I would enjoy meeting you.

Wayne and Tom, these posts continue to surprise me.   Given your role with the USGA Archives, do you really think it appropriate to continue to play silly games with even the most mundane of background information?   With all due respect to you and the USGA, I do not.   

As for Freddy Peters, his daytime job and political post are too easy.  What I want to know is whether was related to the shotgun wielding, bullet dodging, livestock saving Gulf Mills professional?  Who would have thought that Gulf Mills Golf Club had their own cow?

[wsmorrison]

Gag order? Are you waiting for permission from the Peters family before discussing on GCA?

Tom MacWood,

You ask a question that  only Tom Paul, myself and one other person can answer.  Why is that?  You yourself stated on here that you will never provide information to Tom Paul or any of his associates.  Yet you would pose a question that only Tom and/or his associates can answer.  The gag order was your own, we are merely returning the favor.

What are you really after?

Tom Paul,

Funny.  Even at 3am!

[DMoriarty]

You ask a question that  only Tom Paul, myself and one other person can answer.  Why is that?  You yourself stated on here that you will never provide information to Tom Paul or any of his associates.  Yet you would pose a question that only Tom and/or his associates can answer.  The gag order was your own, we are merely returning the favor.

Tom Paul,

Funny.  Even at 3am!

He was a contractor, a landscaper and landscape architect, an entomologist, a forester. He was born in Mass 5 years before William Flynn.   While he was past the age to be drafted in 1917, he nonetheless joined up then married an Ardmore gal (Mary Yarnall) before he heading abroad where he saw action in an ironic location.   How'd they do selling the basket-top standards? 

Oh yeah, Montgomery County Commissioner.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
Is there something wrong with asking a question that only you and Tom can answer? If that is the case I think that is a pretty good question. No? You've never been hesitant to share your Flynn knowledge in the past.

Fred Peters? That goes to show how much I know....I thought it was RE Peters, former Princeton golfer, whose fathers was president of one the railroads.

[Jeff_Brauer]

In the first decade of the 20th century it was believed that Peters took up with Herbert Leeds and the two may've lived together for a few months at the Somerset Club in Boston. This is believed to have caused the split between Leeds and his male companion, James Parker. Parker threatened to cut Peter's balls off and so he apparently did the sensible thing and moved to Philadelphia.

Therefore, because of Peter's short but extremely close relationship with Leeds it is actually possible that Peter's may've designed the second nine at Myopia or at least he may've been a strong architectural influence on Leed during the design and construction of the second nine at Myopia or at least its improvement.

TePaul,

I think you have your Peters confused....I believe the guy who lived with Leeds was Fonda Peters.

[Thomas MacWood]

Gag order? Are you waiting for permission from the Peters family before discussing on GCA?

Tom MacWood,

You ask a question that  only Tom Paul, myself and one other person can answer.  Why is that?  You yourself stated on here that you will never provide information to Tom Paul or any of his associates.  Yet you would pose a question that only Tom and/or his associates can answer.  The gag order was your own, we are merely returning the favor.

Tom Paul,

Funny.  Even at 3am!

Wayne
Apples and oranges. I provided the info TE was requesting. Campbell laid out the original nine at Myopia (along with lots of other info on Campbell). He demaded I supply him with my research. I refused, but told him where he could find it.

Regarding Hutchinson he questioned why he couldn't find him (or someone who researches for him could not find him) on the ship manifests. I told him there was a logical explanation and told him exactly where he could find that explanation.

I gave him the information; I told him where he could find the supporting documentation. That doesn't sound like a gag order to me, but something tells me he has not followed up in either case, which begs the question, how committed is he in discovering the truth. 

[TEPaul]

"As for Freddy Peters, his daytime job and political post are too easy.  What I want to know is whether was related to the shotgun wielding, bullet dodging, livestock saving Gulf Mills professional?  Who would have thought that Gulf Mills Golf Club had their own cow?"


Mr. Moriarty:

No, Fred Peters was no relation to Bob or George Peters, a professional and caddymaster at GMGC. And the shot-gun toting steward who went after after his wife with a knife after both of them broke into the storeroom and drank all the club's liquor was someone else. He did not save the cow either, he sold it without the club's permission which was the unkindest act of all. By the way, Gulf Mills is a cotton mill in Beloxi, Mississippi. Gulph Mills is a golf club in King of Prussia, Pa, not that you would know the difference being the kind of expert researcher you claim you are.

But there might be an outside possiblility that Washington Jefferson Franklin Stepinfetchit, the grandson of freed slaves who worked in the Gulf Mills cotton mill in Beloxi, Mississippi actually routed and designed Gulph Mills Golf Club instead of Donald Ross.

[Thomas MacWood]

And the shot-gun toting steward who went after after his wife with a knife after both of them broke into the storeroom and drank all the club's liquor was someone else. He did not save the cow either, he sold it without the club's permission which was the unkindest act of all.

Are you related?

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
I think you have your Peters confused....I believe the guy who lived with Leeds was Fonda Peters."


Mr. Jeffrey Brauer, Sir:


For the life of me I cannot understand why you are playing the weisenheimer and joking around with this subject. Some on here think Leeds' sexual preferences and living arrangements are extremely important to the understanding of the design evolution of Myopia Hunt Club's wonderful golf course!

In case you aren't aware of it this is a website for expert researchers and this kind of research information is some pretty great shit.

[TEPaul]

"Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 08:44:26 am
And the shot-gun toting steward who went after after his wife with a knife after both of them broke into the storeroom and drank all the club's liquor was someone else. He did not save the cow either, he sold it without the club's permission which was the unkindest act of all.



Are you related?"



Mr. MacWood:

Not that I'm aware of but I have little doubt your kind of independent, expert research could make a pretty fair case I am.

[Jim_Kennedy]

[Thomas MacWood]

RE Peters had a degree in civil engineering from Princeton. A very good golfer as well...3 handicap.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Your protege has some of his facts wrong.  Though little of what he found after our research was long completed is at all relevant.  Does anyone outside his family members care that we know who Frederick Charles Peters parents were (Leonard Constance Peters 1850-1928 and Martha Grady Barnes 1847-1932)?  Or that Fred Peters was born on Sept 20, 1884 (he was 6 years older than Flynn) and died on Oct 21, 1981?  Should we care about the influences on Flynn with the knowledge that Peters married Mary Yarnall (Peters did not marry before he left for service, Flynn stood up for the groom in the service while he was away in military service) who was born in NJ on Oct 14, 1889?  How about their two children, Frederick Yarnall Peters (1919-) and Martha Peters (1921-)?  Why don't you interview them and find out Peters was the real architect and Flynn merely a beard?

Does it help to know that Peters was actively involved in Republican politics in Pennsylvania.?  That  Peters served in the State legislature, 1925-35; as County commissioner, 1935-56; helped establish the County Planning Commission, 1950, that Peters was appointed Collector of United States Customs for Port of Philadelphia by President Eisenhower, 1955.; and was named Tax collector, Lower Merion, 1961?

Anyone paying $19.95 a month can get the information he produced.  What I fail to understand is the value of such information.   He was not involved in Flynn's architecture design business.  Peters ran a landscape business and the St. Mary's Laundry. 

By the way, the basket standards were not a huge success but they were used, among elsewhere in the United States other than Merion, at Huntingdon Valley Country Club, Brookline Square Golf Club, the Old White at the Greenbrier, San Francisco Golf Club (Tillinghast may have influenced that decision) and Winged Foot West.

Just what does it matter that RE Peters had a degree in civil engineering from Princeton and a 3 handicap? 

[Thomas MacWood]

  Should we care about the influences on Flynn with the knowledge that Peters married Mary Yarnall (Peters did not marry before he left for service, Flynn stood up for the groom in the service while he was away in military service)

Stood up for the groom while he was away in the military? How does that work? Did he stand up for the groom on their honeymoon too?

[wsmorrison]

He exchanged the vows at the ceremony standing in for his friend who was away at war service.  I don't think it was all that uncommon at the time, at least as related by Flynn's daughter.  Though you're probably skeptical of anything derived from that source.  As for the standing in for the honeymoon, I'm certain you are trying to be funny.  I don't believe you are succeeding.  if you are serious, it sounds like you are a bit too focused on prurient thoughts.  Control yourself.  I'm sure it gets lonely in that ivory tower, but come on 

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I think it's high time we call Connie and inform her the world of the INTERNET knows far more about her father than she ever has or ever could. We should also explain to her that in the hands of some "independent, expert researcher" as intellectual arrogant and intellectually pompous, albeit actually intellectual dim as Mr. MacWood seems to be that this could all get seriously hilarious!

We should also explain to her that another "independent, expert researcher" from the West Coast believes he can PROVE that her entire family history is either total hyperbole or just a massive lie!   

[DMoriarty]

Wayne,
I agree that most of the background info about Fred is largely irrelevant, which I why I wonder why you bother to try and play games with such information.   His parents names, children's names, and birthday are also a matter of public record by the way.

Pardon me for saying so, but I think it a bit presumptuous of you to demand that we continue to wait for the long promised, to be self-published Flynn book.   

As for the stand-in marriage, I suggest you double check your facts on that one. 

And Wayne, in the future I'd just as soon you post any angry and insulting messages on here instead of sending them privately.   I have tried to communicate with you privately and productively in the past, but you proved less than trustworthy.

Thanks. 

[TEPaul]

Wayno:

It's a tough life, isn't it? If you answer them they call you untrustworthy and if you don't answer them they call you untrustworthy. Perhaps there is some middle ground between answering them and not answering them but for the life of me I just can't think what that would be.

Can you? 

I'm surprised you still try to contact Mr. Moriarty privately. Many months ago he told me to never try to contact him privately again in any way. It seems his logic is that this discussion section should be treated to all this personal garbage.

[Thomas MacWood]

What courses did Flynn & Peters design or redesign?

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul,

That last post by he who continues to remain nameless is absurd.  Nothing new there.

What courses did Flynn & Peters design or redesign?

Tom MacWood,

Why don't you save us all the trouble and just tell us.  Stop playing games.  Do you really think this is the best way to approach the questions you have?