[MargaretC]

Cart paths are visable on a lot of holes.  But not terrible

#12 LZ is plenty adequate, it's just the angle of the image misleading you.

I am not crazy about the rock wall either.......

Mike, thanks so much for sharing these photos!

Whoa!  There's a lot to look at...  I don't mind saying that some of the areas would distract me, but probably a little less so in person.  I do really like several holes, but thumbs down on the rock wall -- just doesn't fit the surroundings.  I would love to see photos of the land prior to construction.

I'm not a pyromaniac, but I'm glad that there was a forest fire.      Hopefully, they have a plan in place to stop the re-growth.

Meg

[Rob Rigg]

Hello Tom,

Would you mind providing any insights into why you passed on Tetherow?

In the trailer on the website, Kidd mentions that others had seen the land but could not see the course, etc. etc.

Was your decision to pass on Tetherow based strictly on the land, or because homes were going to be built around the course, or were there restrictions on the property you could use, or did the vision of the developer not align with yours, etc.? 

On a scale of 1 to 10 from "Poor" land to "Great" land, what would you rate Tetherow based on your site visit?

Earlier in your career would you have considered the Tetherow site?

I hope these questions are not invasive or out of line, if they are I apologize, I am just curious about how your thought process works in these situations.

[Tom_Doak]

Rob:

Mostly, I didn't like the project because I thought the homes would loom over the golf course too much.  A fire burned off most of the natural vegetation there a few years ago ... that's one reason David has put in so much "other" stuff to look at ... but there is little vegetation which will hide big homes.  (Of course, I had failed to consider that the economy might shift and there might not BE any big homes for a while.)

There were also many calls coming from that area and I had the feeling that if I passed on this site another, better one might come along.  And I do like the site for Wicked Pony better, though it will be a much more low-key affair than Tetherow.  I just hope they get their financial hurdles cleared up so we can get back and finish it.

[Matthew Mollica]

Michael,

Can you describe the strategy on 2?

The two-tier fairway looks interesting. Which side is harder to hit, and which side affords the better second shot. Is the green angled to take play from one side more than the other, or can hole location determine the better drive line from the tee on any given day?

Thanks, Matthew

[Rob Rigg]

Thanks for the insight Tom.

To your point, the model home is now up at Tetherow and it looks like a small hotel, visible on quite a few holes, and a bit of an eyesore to be honest. So even if they only get fifty up over the next few years the aesthetics will completely change which is unfortunate.

When Wicked Pony is complete, do you think there is any hope for mere mortals to get a chance to play the course? Maybe early on like they are doing at Tetherow?

Based on the website it looks very very exclusive, which is unfortunate in some ways because I believe that a great course should be like a work of art at a museum, available for all to see, not tucked away in someone's private collection.

Wishful thinking.

[Tom_Doak]

Rob:

The original plan for Wicked Pony was that it would be exclusive, but relatively affordable for a new private club, in the hopes they could attract a bunch of low-handicap players who might have a home elsewhere in the area.  I don't know if that idea will survive as they move forward, with money as an issue.  The golf course has certainly been designed with strong players in mind ... it's narrower than most of our other recent courses, and the front nine in particular is full of big holes.

[Rob Rigg]

Are the Wicked Pony homesites (I think they mention 65 on the website) going to be set back far enough from the course that they do not interfere with the aesthetics?

Also, this is off topic, and may have been mentioned on another thread, but I am curious if/when you are hoping to put out your book on the creation of Pacific Dunes?

Thanks

[Allan Long]

Michael, thanks for posting the pictures. (The weird glass thing is a BBQ pit.)

When I first saw the course, my first thought was that I was going to lose a lot of balls. Thankfully, I actually played the course and didn’t go on first impressions. There is a lot more room off the tee than there looks. Yes, there are some blind shots and some quirky spots on the course, but I looked at this as more of a challenge than a distraction. My initial reaction after walking off the course for the first time was that this course was going to have some polarized reactions. Much like Tobacco Road, I don’t think there will be any middle ground--you’ll either love it or hate it. We’ll see if that is the case.

The greens are severe in spots, and because of the undulations in most of them, there are probably not as many pin-able positions as there could be. If one played the greens a regular basis, you could learn the nuances, and probably have a lot of fun. An example is the front right pin on #6, the same pin placement in Michael’s picture. If you are over the green and putt or chip back at the hole, you have no chance of getting it close--or keeping it on the green. However, if you play the ball about 20-25 feet right of the pin, there is a slope that will take the ball around back to the hole and you can get the ball about eight to ten feet. There are just some spots you cant miss greens, and that knowledge would come with playing the course. But, that is the case at almost any golf course.

I definitely think there are some areas that could be toned down or redone. #16 is a good example. It was my least favorite hole on the course. The bunker in the middle of the fairway surrounded by the tall fescue was a bit much, and there were some patches of fescue set out 50 to 100 yards in front of the green that looked out of place.

Overall, I really liked the course. For those who didn’t like what they saw, I would say play the course then make up your mind. Granted, not everyone will like every golf course they play, but I think you will find a playable, interesting golf course with some remarkable features.

[Pete_Pittock]

Matthew Molica,
For hole #2:
It all depends on your carry distance on the drive and approach. If you have enough to crest the hilltop take the left side for a better angle, especially if the hole is cut in the back right bowl. If you can't take the right side to gain distance on the tee shot.

Re: 16
Even playing from the white tees I couldn't drive it far enough to reach the central bunker. That bunker is for the strong player and sits at the top of a downslope which gives an extra 30+ yards of roll. As far as the approach to the blind green I looked at the topogrraphy and the free yardage book and decided a low shot that just carried the stuff 70 yards short would run down the punchbowl and onto the green. I was right, but still three putted.
I like the hole.

Michael D,
When I posted my pictures on the previous thread (linked) I deliberately downsized my pictures to save bandwidth and allow viewers with <17" screens to see the entire picture w/o manipulation. I do like your pictures.

[Rob Rigg]

Pete,

RE:16

You are lucky one of your putts did not roll off the back left, you may have had to declare a lost ball and taken an X . . . 

I can't wait to play Tetherow again as I think it will be even more enjoyable the second time around. Time to move to Bend and set up shop like Kidd did.

[Allan Long]

Re: 16
Even playing from the white tees I couldn't drive it far enough to reach the central bunker. That bunker is for the strong player and sits at the top of a downslope which gives an extra 30+ yards of roll. As far as the approach to the blind green I looked at the topogrraphy and the free yardage book and decided a low shot that just carried the stuff 70 yards short would run down the punchbowl and onto the green. I was right, but still three putted.
I like the hole.

Pete,

We played from the Kidd Tees and the black tees and the bunker was in play for us. After hitting driver, we came to the conclusion that the hole takes driver out of your hand. The landing area gets pinched in that area, you have the tall fescue on the left, the bunker and fescue in the middle, and then all the trouble on the right if you choose to try and slide it on the right side of the fairway. We ended up figuring out that 4-Iron off the tee was probably the best play. There is so much going on with the hole with the blind approach, the green complex, et al., I just think that the landing area for the drives could be a little less severe.

[Pete_Pittock]

Allan,
Isn't golf strange. Here is a hole at 424 yards is at my limit as a par 4. I need to hit a very good drive and a very good 3 or 5 wood to get home.
But from your tees you need to hit a four iron to avoid central bunkering 260+ yards from the tee. We are both faced with a blind shot but mine will be a runner to the green while you use the aerial game with less club, maybe a 5-7 iron. If you overcook any shot jail awaits. I can't get there.
I'd say that is fair design.

  The only hole I had a major problem with was the par 5 13th from the white tees where I had to hit a 150 yards tee shot. Otherwise I am unsighted to a narrow diagonal fairway with a lost ball probable either left or right. When I moved back to your tees I hit 3 wood to the turn point and the hole was palatable. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
So #1 and #10 shoot down the hill, #9 and #18 come back up it.  We took carts and a caddy the first go around, forgoed the caddy the 2nd.  (Just don't really like 'em, though our guy was totally fine.)  This course would be a solid walk, no doubt, but it could be done.  Plenty of up and downhills, a few walks between holes like getting in and out of "Kidd's corner," which occupies holes #3-#6
...

I thought I would comment on the walkability of Tetherow here instead of starting a new thread.

When I called and asked about walking, I was told "we encourage walking"!


When we two old farts showed up at the clubhouse and payed our green fee, in a effort to get us into carts, we were told "it's a 9 mile walk"!


The same person made both statements!

Others have noted that there is some distance between holes. Actually there was more than I originally suspected, because the big map in the clubhouse only showed the course crossing the main road through the property that had to be crossed four times. It did not show the many roads that lead to future home sites that have to be crossed.

What others have not mentioned is that the course is set up nearly exclusively for carts. When you walk from green to tee, there is often a set of hills obstructing the views of the tees (the carts run around to the opposite side where they are easily visible. We had to shout out to our forecaddie already in the fairway to ask him which way to go to find our tee (no we weren't playing the tippy-tips, they would have been fairly easy to find). But the thing that really breaks the camels back when it comes to displaying their attitude about walkers is the drinking water supply on course. The supply is activated by electric eye. We could find no way to activate the water supply with a water bottle that is carried with us while walking. Instead, these stations provided wide mouth cups that could be filled and placed in the cup holders of a cart. Only these cups would activate the water supply. My buddy went through the time consuming task of filling the cup and then gingerly pouring from the wide mouth into his narrow mouthed water bottle. I simply filled the cup twice and quickly gulped the water down, hoping that would hold me 'till the next station.

We played the first 6 holes in 52 minutes. On 9, we both double crossed our normal shots (me lefty fade, him righty draw) and ended up searching for but losing balls. With this delay, we played the second 6 holes in 71 minutes. In the last 6 holes, I hit two huge slices which caused us searching delay, and hit into the waste area on 13 which gave us trouble finding the ball, and that looks really odd, as it looks like they dug a long bunker and forgot to (or ran out of money) to fill it with sand. Since we finished in about 3 1/2 hours, we must have spent as much as 90 minutes on the last 6 holes, which is also the place where we had to most trouble finding tee boxes.

The walk from 9 to 10 has been mentioned. A significant plus for carballers is that the walk from 18 back to the clubhouse may be the steepest and longest walk in the round. Steep walks after holes always seem more significant than steep walks while playing a hole. So while 18 plays significantly uphill, you don't notice it as you charge up the hill to see how long your last shot turned out.

[Jason Pyle]

Great pictures - Thanks!

I would say looking at this a lot less could have been done to make this more subtle.  Little flitters and flutters and fingers of long whispy grass dotted across many of the fairways left me feeling they tried a little to hard to inject "natural" (where it already was anyway) in an attempt to help the overall end product.  All in all, just a beautiful course and piece of propertly - just think some restraint here and there could have helped the course look more natural.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

When you make your comment about "restraint" I have to ask are you making such a statement solely from photos or from a personal play of the course?

I can tell you that the conclusions you reached are not ones I share and I base my findings on a personal play of the course and from a walk thru visit on a following day.

The "overall end product" may not be everyone's cup of tea but the same can be said for those who love playing a Cypress Point and really can't fathom or handle a Wined Foot / West.

[Jason Pyle]

Matt, first no I've not played it.  I was basing my opinion, as I thought I mentioned but maybe not clearly enough, on the pictures.  There appears to be a lot of unnecessary "stuff" scattered here and there - particularly through the fairways.  That's all I was referring to.  And I think the course looks fantastic, but if an eybrow of high grass here and a finger there were arbitrarily added (thats the way the PICTURES look on a few holes TO ME) then I don't think that was necessary.  I found myself looking at "stuff" in those pics on a few holes maybe more so than the hole as a whole. 

BUT all that said, that's based on pictures - I'd love to play it and see if how it is in person.  ALso anyone that's played it in person is certainly going to have a better vantage point to reference.   

[Garland Bayley]

Jason,

That unnecessary stuff certainly hides enough of the golf course from you as you walk through it, that some of the holes are indistinguishable from weed fields in ones recollection.
I.e., it takes more time to form an impression of what's there.

[Rob Rigg]

Garland - Your points on walking is definitely fair, and I think I mentioned a couple of them in an original post.

I do not mind a long walk, if I can actually walk on a direct line from the tee to the fairway. The problem with many holes on Tetherow is that you have to walk the cart paths from the tee to the fairway which adds a lot of distance.

I had to step out of the way on almost every green to tee and tee to fairway transfer throughout the round.

It is unfortunate because the scenery on many tee to fairway walks is wonderful but extremely difficult to navigate on foot.

This probably would have been a great course to walk if Kidd did not have to route it through corridors and across roads.

I would imagine this was another factor in Tom's decision to pass on building this course.

[Garland Bayley]

Rob! Rob! Rob!

[Rob Rigg]

Touche 

[Anthony Gray]

 Beautiful place, but I do not like centerline mounds of rough.
At the Castle Course they are in blind landing areas.

        Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

The most recent issue of Forbes Life has an article on Kidd. The interview with him presumably takes place while they are playing Tetherow. It says the Castle Course is criticized for its eyebrows. It goes on to say that Tetherow doesn't have eyebrows.                  

It even has a picture of #1 at Tetherow with an eyebrow in full view.
          

[Anthony Gray]

The most recent issue of Forbes Life has an article on Kidd. The interview with him presumably takes place while they are playing Tetherow. It says the Castle Course is criticized for its eyebrows. It goes on to say that Tetherow doesn't have eyebrows.                  

It even has a picture of #1 at Tetherow with an eyebrow in full view.
          

  Garland,

  They kinda look neat. But it takes several plays to know how to avoid them. As a members course they work out better than a course you may visit once a year.

   Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony,

Not only neat, but genius too. I had a thread on that.

Two reasons for the above post. A. Forbes Life, got it wrong. 2 - Let people know Forbes Life writes about golf - they feature a course or architect every issue.

[Rob Rigg]

I can't remember which post I put this on - but -

The eyebrows are getting a trim for 2009 after feedback received from members and guest in regards to crappy lies from "perfect" drives.

The course visuals will thus be toned down fairly significantly.

Although a bit over the top, I did not mind the eyebrows and, as noted previously, after a few rounds you get used to them.

Also - JK toned down his original comments after confessing he was blasted when he made them 

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