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John Kavanaugh

Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2008, 11:42:41 AM »
I can't believe this great game I have played for forty years has come to this.  Aesthetic overt manipulation for the sake of minimaximalism.  I puke in my shoe at the sensory overload.

I have to go with John here.  I probably am not as colorful, but it sure looks as though there is way to
much going on.  He seems to have tried to hard to make the course unique.  Maybe it looks different in
person but where do you hit the ball?

I was way blasted when I wrote that and admit the puking part was a bit harsh.  One thing I love about Bandon Crossings is that they never look to be trying too hard to pull people away from the resort.  Who is the intended demographic and will the housing be visible from the course.  I would like to see architectural covenants be set that blend with the golf architecture.  The clubhouse looks fantastic and the linear views away from the course are somewhat bland when compared to the mountain peaks.  A fine mix of structural architecture might dilute the golf course to a point where the visuals become more balanced.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 11:44:40 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Sean Leary

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2008, 11:52:20 AM »
Two dimensional pictures people. Just like cartpaths look more glaring in pictures, I am guessing the busy-ness factor is exacerbated here as well.

There is a pic of a par 3 hole at MPCC Shore course that was panned because of the the same thing. Almost everyone who has played it said the picture is not representative of what it really looks like. Play it before you condemn it...

Kalen Braley

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2008, 11:52:22 AM »
Some interesting comments and observations on the course...I didn't expect the opinions to be so polarized.  It looks likes great fun to me and half of that fun comes in the form of trying to figure out where to hit the damn ball.

For those who claim sensory overload, it reminds when I used to live in Spokane, WA and there was a fantastic Thai resturant we used to frequent.  As many of us were transplants from the bay area in CA, we could rarely get any of the locals to go with us because they would claim there was too much going on with the food and too many spices for the pallate to handle.  They preferred more simpler foods like steak and potatoes....I know a big shocker!

IMO if this course is half as good as it looks from the pics, I think it ought to be celebrated for being different, something new, and for sensory stimulation even if it is a bit over the top at times.  Better that than the same old boring steak and potatoes.  ;)

Michael Dugger

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2008, 12:09:21 PM »
For the record......there was wind.  Probably 20 mph at times....

You can definately hit driver off the tee on #1, 2, 4 and 5 (#3 being a par 3.)  Absolutely no problem. 

You need to be very careful with the driver on #2, and fit your shot either left or right of the grassy nose, but it's a very reasonable demand.  A big drive here will allow you to get home in two.  I think it's quite fitting to place a demand on accuracy if you want to get home in two shots on a par 5.

#6 is a real bizarre hole.  One fella in my group ripped a perfect draw both rounds and found the lower left plateau.  Considering the pin placement (front right) it didn't do much for him, but surely it would have if the flagstick was on the left portion of the green.  The more I think back on that hole the the more I like it.  We should praise architects for being creative and pushing the envelope, not bash them for trying to bring something new to the table, IMHO.

Driver could be hit on both #8 and #9 as well.  You just have to be dang accurate with it, which in lieu of modern golf clubs and balls, maybe this isn't such a bad thing, fellas? 

#17 did not stand out of the ordinary with the rest of the course, either, Scott.  It fit perfectly.  A la Pronghorn and Juniper GC, this golf course is blasted from and through the rugged highland desert terrain.  There are rock walls all over the place.   
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Craig Sweet

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 02:15:06 PM »
Well...up front, I think it's a lot of eye candy.  I am reminded of a comment one of the pros made during the PGA at Whistling Straits...commenting on all the bunkering, he said it took him a few rounds but he figured it out...it was not necessarily there to be penal, but there to be a distraction and once he realized that, he calmed down, ignored the bunkers and played better golf....

This course looks like a load of eye candy...too much in my opinion. Why the over the top treatment with the waste areas/bunkers/native areas??? How much of the mounding is natural and how much contrived?

I don't doubt it's fun to play...but.....
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2008, 03:36:02 PM »
Kalen,
I'll stand by my earlier views and add that I think (from the photo layout) that if this course were given a shave and a haircut it would look better, play better, and probably faster to boot.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2008, 03:47:19 PM »
Jim- Id pretty much agree with you there. I having nothing against the bit of green at 6, except its not pinnable IMO, nothing wrong with it being a fall off area and green...the central haircut needs to occur.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Rob Rigg

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2008, 08:49:48 PM »
I played Tetherow on Saturday and was very impressed by the course, especially since it was fescue based which is unlike any inland layout I have seen in Oregon.

My favorite element of the course was the aesthetics, which are exemplified by the contrast between Broken Top and Tetherow. Broken Top is very green, with homes lining the course and the coloring looked very standard (meaning mid to dark greens in the fairway and rough). I think these courses appear out of place in the high desert because it does not match the color palette of the area.

Tetherow, on the other hand (as evident in the great pictures posted on the site), melds beautifully with the environment and provides the golfer with a large amount of color contrast. The light shades of the waste area and bunkers, the golden yellow of the long grass and eyebrows, the dark greens of the native vegetation, the dark water, the light green of the fescue, the dark trees which tended to be sporadically scattered about the course, it really is something to behold and difficult to find elsewhere, especially when you factor in the panoramic views of the Cascades and high desert. I hope the home construction does not ruin the aesthetics of the course (which is probably unavoidable).

A couple of the holes had a "circus" element which was kind of fun/different but a little over the top. One of the forecaddies told us that Kidd hit a great drive and a solid second into #16 a couple of weeks ago and found himself over the green back/left, past the cartpath and in the junk. I think even the architect would agree that this hole needs some work. The pin position on #6 was ridiculous but fascinating at the same time because it is not something you see on 99.9% of courses. #17 is visually stunning and the bunker to the left is just nasty.

On many of the holes the area around the greens is cut really tight which allows for unique hole positions that other courses cannot get away with. The greens, although undulating, constantly resulted in straight putts during my round provided I was on the same tier. Not sure if anyone else found the same thing?

The risk/reward element of Tetherow reminded me very much of links golf. You can score well or you can get crushed depending on how you manage and execute on any given hole. There tend to be multiple options off the tee so strategy is up to the golfer, not dictated by the architect.

I did not find my senses overwhelmed but certainly understand how the pictures convey a bit of a disco element not at all in the spirit of minimalistic architecture. You may want to give the course a go before passing final judgement, since it is a great layout, a stunning setting and when you are playing it makes you want to smile, not puke, even though you may find yourself shaking your head at times.

I apologize that my first posting is a novella that probably sounds like an ad for Tetherow, but I think Central Oregon is very fortunate to have this track in addition to some other excellent layouts (such as Crosswater and PH-Fazio).

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2008, 11:42:49 PM »
Two dimensional pictures people. Just like cartpaths look more glaring in pictures, I am guessing the busy-ness factor is exacerbated here as well.

There is a pic of a par 3 hole at MPCC Shore course that was panned because of the the same thing. Almost everyone who has played it said the picture is not representative of what it really looks like. Play it before you condemn it...

Sean you'd better go take a look in person! 8)  Tetherow may the most complex course, visually, I have ever played.

'Mozart, there are too many notes.'

Patrick Kiser

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2008, 01:39:51 AM »
Michael,

Thanks for sharing.

Ya there's a lot going on, but I'm digging it visually.  Some good points about pics not carrying over to the actual experience and I would agree as well from past experience.

Just hearing the comments about not knowing where to go is half the fun.  So I'm with Kalen on that one.  I like the Sahara like carries to the fairway.  However, I think Kidd could have done much more with several of them.  Make it more risk / reward with better positioning the prize.  I don't get that feeling.

The negatives for me are the too repetitive nature of those fescue humps and fringe fescue lips on the bunkers.  Almost unnatural in itself.  Hopefully that will tone down with time.  Gonna be fun getting out of that fescue and good luck finding your ball.  Then there's the water...  Why does that have to be put into play?  Lame, lame, lame...  It's Oregon!  Not Florida!  Kidd knows better.  Put the water somewhere else.

Crazy pin placement aside from the sadistic keeper  ;D ... the undulation should make for some fun putting.

Some holes that stand out for me are the 4th (diagonal carry for positioning), 6th (wild but I'm liking the options - go for it left or stay safe right), 7th (I'm guessing a long par 3 with recovery options), 9th (I like the use of width here and the diagonal carry - options galore - and with the wind coming into play...),  12th  (the hazards are intimidating but those trees to the right have got to go - or is there a fairway to the right or something?), 17th (actually it's more scenic with the amphitheatre affect - but a nice easy par 3 to start calming the round down and a reward for getting this far ... just watch out for that deceptive false front).
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Jim Nugent

Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2008, 01:41:16 AM »
Rob Rigg, excellent post.  Can you compare/contrast Tetherow with other courses many of us might be familiar with?  

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2008, 03:11:18 AM »
I can't believe this great game I have played for forty years has come to this.  Aesthetic overt manipulation for the sake of minimaximalism.  I puke in my shoe at the sensory overload.

John,

While I'm not sure I completely agree with you, I will say this;

I feel like I"m looking at the 24th iteration of the same golf course, except for that stone edifice around the requisite water hazard.

While I appreciate Michael's posting the pics here, and love his passion and enthusiasm, and while I haven't played there and am only judging from those pics...I have to say that any formula...even a good one...become rote and boring without creatively intelligent adaptations.


tlavin

Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2008, 10:31:33 AM »
Contrived minimalism?

Rob Rigg

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2008, 11:19:27 AM »
Jim - I am embarassed to admit that I have not had a chance to get down to Bandon which would be my initial point of comparison. Just playing on fescue brings back memories of Ballybunion and Lahinch, although the experience of playing Tetherow is obviously very different from the Irish links courses.

It would be interesting to get feedback on Tetherow from members who have played:

The Bandons
Chambers
Sand Hills
Sutton Bay
Any "Heathland" courses in the UK


Kalen Braley

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2008, 12:44:06 PM »
Mike C.

Not trying to call you out, but other than the Castle Course, what other course even looks remotely similar to this?

If your hording the pics for those 23 other iterations on your hard drive, by all means please share.   ;D

Michael Blake

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2008, 12:49:12 PM »
From the pictures, I assume the word 'restraint' is not in Kidd's vocabulary.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2008, 01:03:09 PM »
From the pictures, I assume the word 'restraint' is not in Kidd's vocabulary.

Having read The Seventh at St. Andrews, I would say restraint is in Kidd's vocabulary as is balance. If he is going to give you something wild in one place he will exercise restraint and balance it in another place. At least that is my take on the development of the Castle Course as reported in the book.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RJ_Daley

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2008, 02:05:06 PM »
There is a lot to like about Kidd's expression of what you call "eyebrow" bunkers.  But, at the end of the day, going stricktly by pictures.... it suffers from alot of everything.  It makes Mike Strantz look like a valium fiend.  I think the course would have be great with 2/3rds less going on.  And, the maintenance budget must be astronomical... 

I'm sure everyone will want to play it once for sure.  Maybe, there will be some who want to play it over and over again.  It looks like a hit and runner to me.  I don't see anything there to suggest it surpasses Chambers Bay.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael Blake

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2008, 02:19:14 PM »
From the pictures, I assume the word 'restraint' is not in Kidd's vocabulary.

Having read The Seventh at St. Andrews, I would say restraint is in Kidd's vocabulary as is balance. If he is going to give you something wild in one place he will exercise restraint and balance it in another place. At least that is my take on the development of the Castle Course as reported in the book.



I guess it's one thing for Kidd to write about restraint and totally another for him to show it out in the field.

Again, it's only my observation based on these pictures and I appreciate your insight based on the Castle book.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2008, 02:30:54 PM »
Michael,

Kidd didn't write the book. The book was created by a reporter that observed most of the process and listened to debates about how the wildness of one feature was balanced by the lack of such wildness in other features. Kidd gave instructions to the shapers to be creative, and then using his judgement on when to tame it down, and when not to.

I guess your take is that at Tetherow Kidd was a busy company head trotting the world dealing with multiple projects, and let his workers slip a few too many by him. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Dugger

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2008, 03:22:26 PM »
A lot of familiar names involved with the construction of Tetherow.  Troy Russell of Bandon fame being one of them.

This most recent blast of comments is somewhat off the mark.

Again....#1, 2, 4 & 5 have very few "eyebrows"  Truly, #4 is a wide, unencumbered fairway.

#6 is definately crazy.....but I think with some massaging it could be really good.

#8 is wacky, no doubt.

But 9-12 are all very reasonable driving holes.  #10 has some eyebrow stuff in it, but I popped a nice three wood down through the right side of it and the rough and benefitted immensely.  I putted up the hill pnto the green.

On the other hand, those who opt not to challenge this narrow passage can play to the left and therefore must carry the greenside bunker with their approach.  Basic risk/reward.
 
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2008, 03:30:00 PM »
Michael D:  I hope we get a chance to finish Wicked Pony next year so you can compare the two. 

I haven't been out to see Tetherow yet -- I did see the site a few years back, and passed on the job (I actually recommended David for it).  I'm glad to hear that you think so highly of it, but seeing these pictures won't have any effect on what we are building down the road ... different client, different goals, different architect.

Michael Dugger

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2008, 04:34:09 PM »
Michael D:  I hope we get a chance to finish Wicked Pony next year so you can compare the two. 

I haven't been out to see Tetherow yet -- I did see the site a few years back, and passed on the job (I actually recommended David for it).  I'm glad to hear that you think so highly of it, but seeing these pictures won't have any effect on what we are building down the road ... different client, different goals, different architect.

I am salivating at the opportunity to play Wicked Pony.  I hope you get out to Tetherow your next trip to Central Oregon, I look forward to getting your take on Teth.
 
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2008, 05:51:02 PM »
 Link to other Tetherow thread, it has contact information
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32177.0.html

Lin A number of holes are unsighted, but they are not blind to the golfer.
Tetherow provides a large yardage boom with each hole occupying two pages. I would post a copy of hole #6 but my book is in Portland and I am in Wenatchee. Knowing the hole location that Michael encountered I would certainly choose the righ side fairway as that gives a better line to the hole and allows better utilization of the contours.
  I have a higher appreciation of the eyebrows, which my ball missed on all occasions. They are cheaper to build than bunkers, they are cheaper to maintain than bunkers. They have the same recoverability factor. At Tetherow they are small enough that a lost ball is unlikely if people pay attention to the shot. DMK used a slightly larger version at Bandon Dunes, on the 5th hole.
  Regarding hole locations - encountered a couple of doozies on 5 and 7. Had an interesting talk with the head pro. He said they are in an experimental stage, trying to determine what hole locations work at what green speeds.  While the designer should get it right, or very close during the construction they are on a shakedown cruise.
  If you are scheduling multiple courses in the Bend area, Tetherow should be played at the beginning or end of your trip, definitely not in the middle. 
 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 05:56:29 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Joe Hancock

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Re: Tetherow.....new thread....bigger images.....wow!!!!
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2008, 09:29:55 PM »
  I think the course would have be great with 2/3rds less going on.

No one travels to see 2/3rds less. It's not a great formula for a golf business. Most raters, aficionado's and GCA.com'ers go for the "more is more" formula.

Home run.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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