[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Let me further elaborate my comments on Pennsy public golf and its omission from the Golf Mag poll.

No doubt Kelly Blake Moran has done a marvelous job in boosting the fortunes of the Keystone public golf offerings. Morgan Hill and Lederach are two top tier layouts and worthy of attention and play for anyone coming to Pennsy.

However ...

When you size up the USA -- there are plenty of excellent courses that can make that top 100 level and from the ones I have played both Morgan Hill and Lederach would fall short.

Again, that doesn't mean to say they are inferior courses. Quite the contrary -- they have done well to bring a long needed wake-up call to Pennsy public golf which has languished for too many years.

In regards to Bethpage Red it's a fine layout but the idea that it too belongs along the top 100 you can play in the USA is similar to what I just said above about Morgan Hill and Lederach. New York public golf has only one bonafide top tier candidate -- the Black Course.

Let's talk about Jim Engh layouts ...

Lakota Canyon deserves a higher placement. I like Redlands Mesa too, but if one plays Lakota you can see how Engh has advanced his overall skills. Redlands Mesa identified Engh for the national scene, but his talent has far surpassed that layout in Grand Junction.

In regards to Utah golf a case can be made for Thanksgiving Point but it's a very close call and likely would only get the rearesr of seats in the bus. The layouts in St. George are good but thus far from all the ones I've played there (have not played Sand Hollow yet) none is really a top 100 layout.

P.S. Carl N -- you raise a very good point -- too many of the high ticket courses listed have only one element worth noting -- they are high ticket courses. Many of them you mentioned and a few others as well were included simply because of the "name" dimension. There are plenty of unique and interesting courses around the country that are far less expensive and have more interesting and dynamic designs. One of them I would recommend is Red Rock in Rapid City, SD. Superb layout but has little promotion and it's location is not on the beaten track. There are others and I'll be sure to sprinkle a few of them on future posts.

[Jim Nugent]

I did a guestimate on the stated fees and their ranges.  It looks like about an average of $200 a round, a little over $10 a hole.   

I did the averages.  May be a little off, but not much.  The first number is the average of the highest listed price.  The second number is the average of the lowest listed price:

  1-10.....$314/214
11-20.......278/163
21-30.......199/103
31-40.......211/121
41-50.......221/102
51-60.......217/142
61-70.......226/148
71-80.......144/65
81-90.......174/80
91-100.....165/101

Total for entire list:  $215/124.

Under $100 for highest listed price:

$99.......Paak-Ko Ridge (#28)
  82.......Black Mesa (#36)
  89.......The Harvester (#49)
  89.......Quarry at Giants Ridge (#50)
  99.......Longaberger (#57)
  51.......Wild Horse (#60)
  82.......Hawktree (#66)
  79.......Grand National Golf (#73)
  95.......Lakota Canyon (#75)
  99.......Branson Creek (#76)
  93.......WeaverRidge (#78)
  72.......Rustic Canyon (#83)
  95.......Beechtree (#91)
  99.......Grand Bear (#92)
  95.......Circling Raven (#93)

Under $100 for lowest listed price:

$75.......Pacific Dunes (#1)
  75.......Bandon Dunes (#6)
  50.......Bethpage Black (#7)
  75.......Chambers Bay (#8)
  75.......Bandon Trails (#15)
  30.......World Woods Pine Barrens (#18)
  80.......Kapalua (#19)
  55.......Princeville Resort (#20)
  45.......Troon North (#21)
  35.......Cuscowilla (#22)
  79.......Caledonia (#25)
  75.......Arcadia Bluffs (#26)
  95.......Erin Hills (#27)
  47.......Paa-Ko Ridge (#28)
  79.......Bay Harbor (#31)
  85.......Dancing Rabbit (#32)
  45.......We-Ko-Pa (#35)
  35.......Black Mesa (#36)
  79.......PGA West (#37)
  30.......Pumpkin Ridge (#38)

That's through the top 40.  I got tired at that point and stopped.  But there are many more in this category.  If the prices are available, quite a few bargains.  


  
  

[Kalen Braley]

I'd agree with the sentiments of Enghs work at Lakota Canyon and especially Redlands Mesa.  They both very easily belong in the top 50, and are much better than the likes of CDA resort, Circling Raven, Trump, etc.

[Richard Choi]

How much impact does conditioning have on the rating?

It seems to me that one of the reasons why so many uninteresting, but high-fee courses are listed are due to the fact that conditioning is usually top notch at those courses.

[Tim Leahy]

I would also think Saddle Creek in Copperopolis, CA belongs on this list, but perhaps its just a bit too remote to get the rounds and people to see it.

I have to disagree with you on Saddle Creek. It is a good course but I could find quite a few more public that I would rate higher in CA that didn't make this list.

La Purisima
Sandpiper
Harding Park
Apple Mountain
Coyote Moon
Old Greenwood
Barona Creek
Angeles National
Industry Hills-Ike
Oak Quarry
Hunter Ranch
Poppy Hills

to name a few in no particular order.

[Anthony Fowler]

Everyone always finds some perplexing things in these rankings.  As many others have, I question the placement and presence of several courses on the list.

Those I have played are:

1. Pacific
5. No. 2
6. Bandon Dunes
7. Bethpage
8. Chambers
11. Pasatiempo
15. Bandon Trails
23. Torrey
37. PGA West (Stadium)
38. Pumpkin Ridge
41. Taconic
43. Pine Needles
61. Turning Stone Atunyote
63. Turning Stone Shenendoah
70. La Quinta (Mountain)
83. Rustic Canyon
94. Pinehurst No. 8


I would personally re-rank them in the following order:

Pacific
Bethpage
Bandon Trails   
Torrey                         - underrated in my opinion, great routing, great shot values, great vistas as a bonus
Pinehurst No. 2           -slightly overrated, not enough hole variety IMO
Chambers
Rustic Canyon             -WAY underrated
Pasatiempo
Bandon Dunes             -overrated, just not that impressive when you see what else was done on that terrain
Pine Needles
Taconic
Pinehurst No. 8
PGA West (Stadium)

The rest are not particularly memorable and may not deserve their place on the list.  There is no way of knowing, however, unless one were to play 100 better public course in the U.S., which I have not.

The Turning Stone coures are just too resorty for my taste, and probably benefit on the list from casino traffic and nice conditioning.
Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost) is fun for an affordable public but is completely drowned out by a much superior sister course.
 

[Brian Cenci]

By first glance from what I've played (28 of the top 100 listed) Bay Harbor listed at #31 is a joke, Wild Horse is better than #60.  I'm not a big fan of Hawktree, so it being #66 is a surprise to me, especially listed better than Tullymore (#95) which I think is a much better Engh.  Although most people don't like it, the Whistling Straits - Irish course is better than #68.

The biggest injustices are Forest Dunes not being on the list nor Greywalls.  Maybe not enough of the panelists have played them but there's no question they're top 100 public courses, they're top 100 IMO on any type of list.

[Glenn Spencer]

If I had played all those courses, I would be surprised if Bethpage Red wasn't in my top 100.

[Kyle Henderson]

I would also think Saddle Creek in Copperopolis, CA belongs on this list, but perhaps its just a bit too remote to get the rounds and people to see it.

I have to disagree with you on Saddle Creek. It is a good course but I could find quite a few more public that I would rate higher in CA that didn't make this list.

La Purisima
Sandpiper
Harding Park
Apple Mountain
Coyote Moon
Old Greenwood
Barona Creek
Angeles National
Industry Hills-Ike
Oak Quarry
Hunter Ranch
Poppy Hills

to name a few in no particular order.

Sorry to go off the main topic,

but from your list I've played

Harding Park
Apple Mountain
Hunter Ranch
Poppy Hills

Of those, I only see Apple Mountain as a clearly superior choice to Saddle Creek. I'd also rank Stevinson Ranch up there.

Judging from the top 100 courses I've played or seen in person (Pebble, Spyglass, Pasatiempo, Spanish Bay, Lakota, Black Mesa, Rustic Canyon), the omission of Tobacco Road from the list is criminal. Spanish Bay is #40 and TR doesn't make the list?

Good lord!

[Tony_Chapman]

I can't believe that there aren't a few courses in the top-59 that would trump Wild Horse at 60. To look at where Caledonia is and where Wild Horse is blows my mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

The issue is that too many of the so-called "rated" courses reflect only those courses that are generally top ticket price items for people to pay. Wild Horse and other courses like it -- Black Mesa comes quickly to mind -- are not seen as elite public layouts because of the usual downs side for those courses with little fanfare.

Generally that relates to:

1). No name designer

2). Not prime time location

3). Rater indifference or ignorance (take your pick)

[JMorgan]

What do you do in two years in the eyes of the raters to move up 38 spots like Troon North Pinnacle?

[Andy Troeger]

What do you do in two years in the eyes of the raters to move up 38 spots like Troon North Pinnacle?

Troon North changed their configuration. The Pinnacle is the back nines of the original courses and the Monument is now the front nines.

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