Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point

[Tim Nugent]

THe USGA recommendation for Putting Green Construction (commonly but eroniously referred to as the USGA Spec.'s main purpose is to create a perched water table and thus RETAIN water in the root zone.  The main problem with a USGA green is that it can retain too much water and is hard to dry out in certain circumstances - ie high heat and humidity days and nights coupled with above average rainfall. (The  main reason for the invention and market fof the Sub-Aire system).  I don't see that as an issue at CP.  Also, CP  has a sand subsoil (although so does MPCC nest door and they have had drainage issues over the years).  Before worrying about an architect (personally, I don't think they even need one since they are just replicating something that already exists - just survey it and replicate it) I would be securring a good agronomist and  contractor.  The proposed grass type has much to do with determining the growing medium.  Also, remember that PB installed sub-aire to warm-up the root zone as much as to regulate the water.  However, you need a tile sub-drainage system in-place to utilze the Sub-Aire.
Something that should be considered in the final solution is the strong contours of the greens.  USGA greens work best on flat greens and the more contour and slope, the greater the amount of dry spots and wet troughs.
What ever they decide,  the rebuilding of a green at 12" will require the excavation and importation of hundreds cubic yards of materials and this will be invasive no matter how you look at it.  Hopefully, larg ballon tire trucks will be used to minimize damage just getting to the greens.

[Adam Clayman]

There's plenty of clay in the forest's sub soil. Next door at Spyglass is the perfect case. 

[Steve Okula]

Ian,

I am not knocking USGA specs but at the same time I don't believe that they are the all singing all dancing one size fits all solution that you do.

I am very well aware of what they are and how they work. Some have sand and peat (peat being very questionable from an environmental point here in Europe) and some types have pure sand. Indeed, the USGA have stated that they would like to use soil or other additives in their specs and so move towards the german FLL specs.

It is however IMO questionable to produce conditions for growing grass that make it difficult if not impossible to maintain any sort of cover without artificial watering or the use of P containing fertilisers for fine turf grasses.
Bad pushups can be a nightmare as you say but if done rightly they are far superior to USGA in that they require less fertilisers, are far more desease resitant and produce just as good a putting surface that is similar to the surroundings.

I would take issue with your last statement 'If a club doesnt already have USGA spec greens, the super is constantly striving to modify his pushup to achieve what a USGA green can already do. Move water' as it gives the impression that with USGA specs the super can sit on his ass enjoying a care free life. This, as I am quite sure you are aware, is not the case but is used by people hell bent on pushing USGA specs on the ignorant at all costs. USGA is not all good, it has a whole host of problems that come with it.

JKM,

what about the bomb and how do you do that coloured writing thing

Jon,

If you don't mind, your post raises a few questions.

Why is peat environmentally questionable?

When did the USGA start recommending straight sand or a soil mix?

What are "German FLL"specs?

Why would anyone fertilize with phosphorous on an established USGA green (or any other green)? What benefit would that element provide? Even in sand greens, phosphorous is usually present in sufficent quantities for turfgrass health.

Why would push-up greens be more disease resistant than USGA?

[Steve Okula]

There is a soil fumigant, Basamid, that is labeled for the control of a number of species of nematodes. As far as I can see from the label, it should be legal in California.

I've used it to clean bermudagrass out of sand-based greens and it works well for that, but I haven't attacked nematodes with it.

Coring out and rebuilding the greens to be rid of nematodes will work for a little while, but what's to prevent them from reinfesting? They're probably found in the soil all around the green sites.

[Kyle Harris]

I admit I didn't read everything in this thread, but is the conclusion that the current conditions at Cypress are not conducive to water movement through the profile?

The course is coastal, and probably constantly buffeted by winds... I would imagine that the exposed greens have no issues with water being retained.

How many greens are sheltered?

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

You really don't think they need an architect to rebuild all the greens exactly as they are now? 

Who is going to make sure the contractor is doing a great job?

[John Moore II]

Tom--Not to say they don't need an architect, but in theory, the Green Committee (or however Cypress is governed) could oversee the construction and have detailed plans. But in the same sense, who would make sure the architect is doing a great job?? It would go back to the committee, or should.
--For the record, based on the existing quality of whats there, I think a damn good (the 'best') architect should be supervising a damn good construction team and contractor (again, the 'best')

[David Stamm]

The "best" in CPC's case needs to be defined as who has the track record of being sensitive to the legacy of the course and not interested in leaving their "mark" because of what it could do for their reputation by working on such a high profile course. There are some architects that are considered the "best" by various mediums who should be the last persons on earth to touch a course such as CPC based on their previous track records.

[John Moore II]

David--Thats why I put best in quotations. I certainly think they need the 'best' for their given situation.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Joel has to love how this thread is going.

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel has to love how this thread is going.

Tiger:
I know another club that should have considered this as well.  At least CPC is being pro-active and looking at all sides.  The club I mention never looked at rebuilding the push ups and brought in a 4th rate architect with no experience in such matter and the results will show which is what others on this thread are suggesting.


There are some good points here. 

Yes they are push up sand based greens.

The nemitode only attacks poa.   So maybe its possible CPC will put in something like a fescue which would be appropriate if they didn't want to run the speeds over 9.  My guess is the membership would not allow this?  So the questions is, is their a strain of bent that would be poa resistant.  Answer, not 100%, and it would be a fight almost every day.

I can't imagine the club would use Fazio but I guess anything is possible.  If Doak is out, that opens up everything.

[Jed Peters]

  If Doak is out, that opens up everything.

If Tom Doak is out, Kyle Phillips would be the obvious choice, with Dave Wilbur doing the turf services.

They're local, and they're some of the best (if not THE best) around.

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

Sorry I haven’t  answered your questions earlier, so here goes. Oh excuse the poor english I don’t use it all that much these days.

Jon,

If you don't mind, your post raises a few questions.

Why is peat environmentally questionable?

Here in europe and especially in GB there is a shortage of good peat. Most peat moors are rightly protected. Also when peat dries out isn’t it hard to get to accept water again?

When did the USGA start recommending straight sand or a soil mix?

There have been several courses where I am at the moment that have left out the peat and gone for straight sand in a similar style to the calafornia green. I am not sure that the USGA recommend this but  I assume it was passed by the labs before use. I never said they recommended soil mixes but I read an article not so long back where the USGA were looking into other additives including soils. The reason given for not recommending soil mixes until now was it was very difficult to set specs for them due to the wide range.

What are "German FLL"specs?

FFL are  german based specs which have a similar perculation specs to USGA but allow several different builds depending on the natural drainage of the site and the use of soil in the mix.

Why would anyone fertilize with phosphorous on an established USGA green (or any other green)? What benefit would that element provide? Even in sand greens, phosphorous is usually present in sufficent quantities for turfgrass health.

This is again maybe a european problem. In main land europe (except scandinavia) I have yet to find a company that recommends anything other than a full NPK fertiliser. In GB this is not the case but I am unaware of what the situation is in the USA. From your response it appears that you don’t use any P.

Why would push-up greens be more disease resistant than USGA?

Mainly because it has a stronger/more bio life in it (english word missing at the moment ). In the last 20 years I have mainly worked with push greens and have never had to spray fungicide or pesticides. This is in sharp contrast to many of the surrounding courses  that appear to be having a constant campaign to keep their greens in some sort of shape. What is interesting is the approaches which are soil base are not effected but those with mainly sand rootzones are.

[Steve Okula]

Steve,

Sorry I haven’t  answered your questions earlier, so here goes. Oh excuse the poor english I don’t use it all that much these days.

Jon,

If you don't mind, your post raises a few questions.

Why is peat environmentally questionable?

Here in europe and especially in GB there is a shortage of good peat. Most peat moors are rightly protected. Also when peat dries out isn’t it hard to get to accept water again?

When did the USGA start recommending straight sand or a soil mix?

There have been several courses where I am at the moment that have left out the peat and gone for straight sand in a similar style to the calafornia green. I am not sure that the USGA recommend this but  I assume it was passed by the labs before use. I never said they recommended soil mixes but I read an article not so long back where the USGA were looking into other additives including soils. The reason given for not recommending soil mixes until now was it was very difficult to set specs for them due to the wide range.

What are "German FLL"specs?

FFL are  german based specs which have a similar perculation specs to USGA but allow several different builds depending on the natural drainage of the site and the use of soil in the mix.

Why would anyone fertilize with phosphorous on an established USGA green (or any other green)? What benefit would that element provide? Even in sand greens, phosphorous is usually present in sufficent quantities for turfgrass health.

This is again maybe a european problem. In main land europe (except scandinavia) I have yet to find a company that recommends anything other than a full NPK fertiliser. In GB this is not the case but I am unaware of what the situation is in the USA. From your response it appears that you don’t use any P.

Why would push-up greens be more disease resistant than USGA?

Mainly because it has a stronger/more bio life in it (english word missing at the moment ). In the last 20 years I have mainly worked with push greens and have never had to spray fungicide or pesticides. This is in sharp contrast to many of the surrounding courses  that appear to be having a constant campaign to keep their greens in some sort of shape. What is interesting is the approaches which are soil base are not effected but those with mainly sand rootzones are.

No, I avoid any phosphorous on the greens, and I stopped listening to recommendations from fertilizer companies many years ago.

Jon, where are you at the moment and where are the courses you have been working on?

I'm the GCS at Golf de Joyenval, near Paris. I have been working in continental Europe since 1991. I would be interested in talking to you more about this.

Please e-mail me at steveokula@hotmail.com

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Joel You are correct that on CPC not going Fescue. I tend to love it, but I am questioning it myself after Chambers a year later. I think any club would be wise to have a 2nd opinion architect when using anyone but especially one with limited experience in that sort of project. This is for the same reasons we all get 2nd opions. It is good business and often helps the primary architect get past inhouse politics which have him saying things he really does not want to do.

[Joel_Stewart]

  If Doak is out, that opens up everything.

If Tom Doak is out, Kyle Phillips would be the obvious choice, with Dave Wilbur doing the turf services.

They're local, and they're some of the best (if not THE best) around.

I don't agree with that.  I doubt Kyle is under consideration, he has no experience in rebuilding greens.  Kyle is a very innovative thinker but not in this regard.   

[Jed Peters]

I don't agree with that.  I doubt Kyle is under consideration, he has no experience in rebuilding greens.  Kyle is a very innovative thinker but not in this regard.   

California Club?

[Joel_Stewart]

Exactly.  He spent $13.5 million to rebuild the course, especially the first 6 or 7 holes.  He brought back all the bunkering.

This project is completely different.  Not one hole needs to be adjusted.

[Steve Okula]

  If Doak is out, that opens up everything.

If Tom Doak is out, Kyle Phillips would be the obvious choice, with Dave Wilbur doing the turf services.

They're local, and they're some of the best (if not THE best) around.

I don't agree with that.  I doubt Kyle is under consideration, he has no experience in rebuilding greens.  Kyle is a very innovative thinker but not in this regard.   

I'm sure Kyle could do the job as well as anyone. How innovative do you need to be to replicate an existing green?

[David Stamm]

  If Doak is out, that opens up everything.

If Tom Doak is out, Kyle Phillips would be the obvious choice, with Dave Wilbur doing the turf services.

They're local, and they're some of the best (if not THE best) around.

I don't agree with that.  I doubt Kyle is under consideration, he has no experience in rebuilding greens.  Kyle is a very innovative thinker but not in this regard.   

I'm sure Kyle could do the job as well as anyone. How innovative do you need to be to replicate an existing green?

Let's hope the only innovation that occurs is the removal of the problem while seemingly leaving the course untouched. Who ever it is, the last thing any lovers of CPC want is an effort to "leave his mark" while there.

[JSPayne]

Would some sort of fumigation not kill nematodes? If so, would it not work to simply strip off the infested turf, fumigate the entire greens soil profile, then regrass with whatever they choose to go with? Seems to me like a very smart way to preserve all greens contours.

And besides, if they were to decide on a grass besides Poa that the nematodes would not attack, is there even a need to rebuild anything? Just strip and regrass no?

Some of the best soil profiles that I've seen are the very old California push-ups, as they are rich in desirable organic matter, abundant with microbial life and activity and blend well with surrounding soil profiles.

[Steve Okula]

Would some sort of fumigation not kill nematodes? If so, would it not work to simply strip off the infested turf, fumigate the entire greens soil profile, then regrass with whatever they choose to go with? Seems to me like a very smart way to preserve all greens contours.

And besides, if they were to decide on a grass besides Poa that the nematodes would not attack, is there even a need to rebuild anything? Just strip and regrass no?

Some of the best soil profiles that I've seen are the very old California push-ups, as they are rich in desirable organic matter, abundant with microbial life and activity and blend well with surrounding soil profiles.

That would work only as a common sense approach.

Like I said above, the fumigant Basamid is labelled for nematodes and legal in California.

Why not try a green or three as JSPayne suggests and see how it goes?

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