Converting bentgrass to bluegrass

« **on:** August 18, 2008, 09:14:38 PM »

For the turf experts, architects, and agronomically-minded individuals out there...

On another thread, "Red Mike Revisited", I wondered why the golf course there wouldn't be converting from their present bentgrass fairways to dwarf bluegrass fairways (they have had problems in the past with their fairways, and are looking at alternatives). I was told last Friday by one of the owners that in the coming days they will overseed their fairways with a "newer" strain of bentgrass which apparently is hardier than what is there now.

Can anyone explain what is involved in converting bentgrass fairways to bluegrass?

Thanks,
JJ

« **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2008, 10:57:48 PM »

Alot of chemicals, alot of verticutting, alot of mowing, alot of seeding (broadcast, drill, slit....choose your poison) and alot of water.

Or just rip out and resod.

In short, turf conversion is no easy (or cheap....or inobtrusive) process. By interseeding a different cultivar of bentgrass, it sounds like they are just hoping to create a more versatile and resistant (to cold, disease, heat, whatever it may be) polystand instead of what is probably mostly a monostand right now. Sounds like a smart move.

« **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2008, 11:11:34 PM »

JS,

The low-mow bluegrasses have the same issues as bentgrass: they are just as susceptable to dollar spot fungus; they are even more prone to thatch development, hence they require an aeration program of maintenance equal to that of bentgrass. Also they require the same amount of mowing as bentgrass.

On some soils or environments the low mow bluegrasses might get by with a tad less water than bentgrass but they would nonetheless require the same coverage of sprinklers, which is generally the biggest cost associated with irrigation.

And for all of that bentgrass is still a much much better playing surface.

Now if you want to roll the expectations way back to basics, the best bluegrass that I have ever worked with for fast and firm is Merion bluegrass. I've seen unwatered Merion bluegrass fairways turn to straw in plus 100
degree droughts, and after the first rain it came right back, green as can be. But you had to mow it at an inch, and by today's standards that just don't cut it.

« **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2008, 11:22:05 PM »

Brad, interesting points. I was unaware that the low mows required as much aerification or grooming as bent. Our club re-grassed our fairways 4 years ago and there was much debate about the low mows vs. bent. Bent won out and our fairways are thriving. We are located in MN and dollar spot is an issue as always but the playing surface is sublime compared to what we had, a mish mash of blue, poa and bent.

As a committee member trying to evaluate options, you never heard about the thatch component of the low mows. Makes sense when you think about it.

« **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2008, 11:28:55 PM »

Bruce,

There are places where ryegrass hasbeen intorduced to fairways for the same reason that people deliberate over bluegrass as an option to bent. But then the ryes get hammered by leaf spot and pythium.

Bentgrass fairways really aren't more expensive to keep nice. In fact my bentgrass fairways receive only six or seven dolloar spot sprays a year with just a little bit of urea and iron thrown in the tank for color. Bent requires way less fertilizer than any other grass.

« **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2008, 11:43:15 PM »

Quote from: Bradley Anderson on August 18, 2008, 11:28:55 PM

Bruce,

There are places where ryegrass hasbeen intorduced to fairways for the same reason that people deliberate over bluegrass as an option to bent. But then the ryes get hammered by leaf spot and pythium.

Bentgrass fairways really aren't more expensive to keep nice. In fact my bentgrass fairways receive only six or seven dolloar spot sprays a year with just a little bit of urea and iron thrown in the tank for color. Bent requires way less fertilizer than any other grass.

Thanks, PM sent.

« **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2008, 08:34:32 AM »

Bradley,

Sorry, some confusion.....I wasn't talking about the differences between bent and blue, I was talking about the process of converting grass types in fairways. No doubt each grass has it's own issues, but I was just saying the mere process of trying to convert is an ardorous and costly one on its own.

« **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2008, 02:09:52 PM »

Bluegrass is not even in the same category as bentgrass concerning the amount of maintenance that is required. Disease pressure on blue is minimal and limited mostly to root diseases such as summer patch. 6 or 7 dollar spot sprays a year would be maybe 1 w/ bluegrass.
Bluegrass is way more drought tolerant than bentgrass and requires less fertilizer. Yes it does take some aeration but probably 1/2 as much as bentgrass for a good surface. Bluegrass is a great grass but for years the stigma was attached to it, but the newer blues are outstanding and in some cases should compete w/ other types of grass even in high end situations, but at lower maint regimes easily win over rye and bent.
As far as conversion is concerned, it will be a long haul overseeding into bentgrass as overseeded blue does not usually compete well with existing grasses. If they really want blue-they should spray and sod.

« **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2008, 02:16:27 PM »

We mow our blue at just over 1/4" and I'll take it over bent any day. It's very drought tolerant and we only feed it once a year. We never treat for any turf diseases, not even snow mold protection, as it recovers very quickly in the spring. If you're talking about re-grassing, then why not consider fine fescue? Very little water, no fertilizer, no pesticides, how could you go wrong?

« **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2008, 02:23:06 PM »

If they ever hold a turf grass olympics, Josh is the top seed for the gold in the dwarf bluegrass category.

« **Reply #10 on:** August 19, 2008, 03:17:46 PM »

Quote from: Greg Chambers on August 19, 2008, 02:16:27 PM

We mow our blue at just over 1/4" and I'll take it over bent any day. It's very drought tolerant and we only feed it once a year. We never treat for any turf diseases, not even snow mold protection, as it recovers very quickly in the spring. If you're talking about re-grassing, then why not consider fine fescue? Very little water, no fertilizer, no pesticides, how could you go wrong?

Greg, which cultivars of bluegrass do you have?

JJ

« **Reply #11 on:** August 19, 2008, 03:28:39 PM »

We have a three way blend of Arcadia, Odyssey, and SR 2284.

« **Reply #12 on:** August 19, 2008, 05:54:10 PM »

I agree wholeheartedly w/Greg. Wow 1/4" is impressive- hate to sidetrack this thread but how do you keep poa out at that height?

« **Reply #13 on:** August 19, 2008, 06:30:39 PM »

What height are you at in the FWs Josh? ~5/8th?

And, what is Wild Horse (A97-890) from Blue Mt. Seed, Inc.? Do you have a cultivar named after you now?

« **Reply #14 on:** August 19, 2008, 09:57:16 PM »

Quote from: Josh_Mahar on August 19, 2008, 05:54:10 PM

- hate to sidetrack this thread ...

No worries Josh. Interesting stuff.

« **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2008, 10:01:45 AM »

We built some replacement tees last fall and switched to Bluegrass, haven't sprayed them all season and have only watered them a couple of times mostly to soften them.

Steve

« **Reply #16 on:** August 20, 2008, 01:45:41 PM »

Dick, Wild Horse variety isn't from us and we are at .420" But we have lots of rye with that blue-which can be good and bad.

« **Reply #17 on:** August 20, 2008, 02:35:47 PM »

I have bent that has strayed into my blue approaches in spots, where the irrigation coverage is heavier. In those spots the bent is much thatchier. Out in the fairways the blue gets less water than the bent greens and tolerates drought stress much better. The wilt/permanent wilt window can be very small for bent, hours on some days, but for the blue you've got a drought dormancy response and it will recover after days of dryness. the blues can produce fine surfaces and are my pick in the high desert. 5600', occasional 100+ temps and cold dormant winters.

« **Reply #18 on:** August 20, 2008, 03:56:41 PM »

Josh,

The h.o.c. is .300, and the sod was full of poa already from the farm. We don't keep it out, but we do try to manage the seed heads.

« **Reply #19 on:** August 21, 2008, 01:23:23 AM »

Guys, I apologize if I don't know the name of your course or your location, so if you don't mind, please state this. Thanks.

« **Reply #20 on:** August 21, 2008, 11:41:46 AM »

I am in the CO Rockies, about 75 miles NW of Denver. Altitude 8000'.

« **Reply #21 on:** August 21, 2008, 04:59:34 PM »

Course name, Greg?

Pat? Steve? Bradley? Bruce?

Thanks guys.
JJ

« **Reply #22 on:** August 21, 2008, 10:13:33 PM »

Birmingham CC, Michigan

« **Reply #23 on:** August 22, 2008, 11:59:08 AM »

Grand Elk Golf Club, Granby CO

« **Reply #24 on:** August 22, 2008, 12:19:23 PM »

Quote from: JJohnson on August 21, 2008, 04:59:34 PM

Course name, Greg?

Pat? Steve? Bradley? Bruce?

Thanks guys.
JJ

JJ, I am a member at Alexandria Golf Club in Alexandria MN. I AM NOT a superintendent but I do enjoy learning about your trade and all of the myriad issues of turf grass maint. A good and informative thread so far. Thanks

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