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Bob_Huntley

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Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« on: August 18, 2008, 03:21:11 PM »
I do not want to hijack the Oympic Thread but I keep thinking of what happens to the First Tee aspirants when, as young adults, they become fodder for public access golf courses.

I think back to seeing children in different parts of the world playing football(soccer) on pavement with coats as goal posts, young cricketers with the stumps painted on a wall at their backs. In New York, seeing basketball played with an astonishing amount of vigor and athleticism on beaten up courts. This, without one adult trying to administer or organize them.

This is the future of any game, let children be children and don't hand out free stuff.  What I have seen of Little League baseball makes me cringe.

Bob

Cory Brown

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2008, 03:31:13 PM »
Bob,

I agree with you about little league, and also junior golf, when I was a kid I loved playing in high school tournaments, but I hated playing in the junior golf events that they arranged to feel like tour events (including marshalls running around looking to disqualify kids for talking to their parents or friends). 

When I was young I had a lob wedge and a lot of trees in my backyard and a couple of nice courses routed from tree to tree.  Back then I chipped in nearly once a round, now I'm lucky if it's once a year.

Matt MacIver

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 03:32:11 PM »
Golf, as we know it, requires grass and lots of real estate.  

Perhaps the future of golf requires a frisbee?  

Phil McDade

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 03:33:01 PM »
Bob:

Michael Phelps has accomplished what he's done largely because of very formal, organized coaching, training and competition since he was about 8.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 03:38:00 PM »
Bob, you are in good company on your misgivings.  As pertains to Little League for instance, Yogi Berra felt much the same way as you.  He thought that these organized leagues that are dependent on parents taking the kids to and from, and hanging around in the stands waiting for little Johnny or Timmy to get his one at bat and chasing butterflies in rt field was not the way to go.  He thought that pick-up neighborhood games organized by the kids, for the kids on a drop in and drop out basis, playing work-up 500 and whatever the kids come up with actually had more kids playing and learning on their own than all the coaching to a farethewell, and doting on the little kiddies.  

At the risk of sounding like 'old man Daley' the crabby old goat down the street, when we were kids, in my very blue collar neighborhood, the summer days would have an ongoing baseball game of sorts (sometimes several kids on a side, sometimes 4 orr 5 kids on a side depending on who was coming and going.  The game would be on from 8Am to dark, obviously with exceptions and some down days, etc.  The same in the Fall.  There would be anything from a tackle football to a smear game going on all day in the fields around the neighborhood.  

First Tee is only different in that it depends on a real maintained facility.   Sure, kids could go in an open space and hit balls in <100-150 yard shots and shag them (most urban parks don't allow it).  That brings more adult supervision and facilities management and other considerations into it, and precludes "pick-up" sort of matchplays and such, generally speaking.  And, it is more likely that a private club is the only place that might resemble a golf facility where kids can drop in and make up mathes and such on an ad hoc basis.  Some muni's might be possible, but not many daily fee or other forms of public courses can cut out that much free or open tee times to allow such.  Thus the idea of disadvantaged kids having drop-in sort of access is sort of opposite of the whole scene in private clubs or public.  

I'm afraid that in golf's case, first tee may not be the best vehicle to bring recreation and sporting development to our disadvantaged kids.  It seems it is just too facilities dependent.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

rjsimper

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 03:43:23 PM »
Bob:

Michael Phelps has accomplished what he's done largely because of very formal, organized coaching, training and competition since he was about 8.

And how much would you say this cost his mother?

Kalen Braley

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 03:44:46 PM »
As it pertains to the 1st tee, can't say I'm a fan of it, but for different reasons.

I think its good to help out disadvantaged kinds in poor neighborhoods who otherwise, wouldn't have any access to the game.  However, wouldn't the money be better spent on more pressing things in thier life?

Like lack of food, healthcare, good education, clothing, training, etc.  Basketball, baseball, football, all of those things can be had for pretty much next to nothing in terms of cost.  All you need is a ball and a place to play.  As golf is so expensive between clubs, green fees, and range balls, isn't it better to allocate that money elsewhere?

Richard Choi

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 03:47:51 PM »
Any talk of going back to the times when kids would have pick up games of any kind is I am afraid not possible.

I still remember playing tag football down the block from me with all the kids from the neighborhood while I was growing up. But that just does not happen anymore due to the fact that parents are a lot more protective with their children.

I cannot imagine a parent today where they will just tell their children to go play outside and comeback in time for dinner. Today, every playdate is scheduled supervised affair.

In this kind of climate, I doubt that you can really introduce the game to anyone (who does not have a parent who is already a golfer) without something like the First Tee program.

John Burzynski

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 03:53:10 PM »
Golf has one major difference from basketball, soccer, even cricket and baseball; it requires real estate.  Basketball is on a small court, soccer can be played on less than a full sized field or in the street, so can baseball (and I assume cricket) be played in the street, with a tennis ball and bat like we used to play when we were kids.  These games can be played as pickup games in the street with simple equipment and little need for a formal widespread area of field.

Golf is another story.  Unless you want to practice strictly putting, the game requires space, space without cars that can have their windshields broken by a golf ball, space to hit a ball even 150-200 yards (or even to practice chipping 50-100 yards).  This type of space is just NOT AVAILABLE in most urban areas, at least not safely available where there is not a significant chance of an errant golf ball hitting a car or another person.

I am not big on lots of organized sports either, and I have 3 boys who play(ed) sports at various levels and talents grade school through high school.  Our kids are over scheduled and formalized, but as far as golf goes, they need to be able to play on a real course (even a par 3 exec course is more than sufficient)  with at least equipment made for the games (even if it is persimmon woods  or older or second hand clubs).    Maybe just putting them out there after a couple of etiquette and swing lessons is the answer, let them develop a love for the game without burning them out.  

Most parents think they have the next Tiger, Jordan, Beckham or A-Rod, so this is probably all moot, anyhow.

Phil McDade

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 03:57:14 PM »
Bob:

Michael Phelps has accomplished what he's done largely because of very formal, organized coaching, training and competition since he was about 8.

And how much would you say this cost his mother?


Alot -- but it's hard to train Olympic-caliber athletes (which Phelps has been since he was 11) for free.

I tend to agree w/ Richard Choi -- as much as my good friend RJ Daley fondly recalls his boyhood days, sports for youngsters has taken a dramatically different turn for my kids' (15, 12, and eight) generation. Anyone who thinks, for instance, that LeBron James got to where he is by playing on the playgrounds of Akron, Ohio, with his buddies is mistaken.

I'm not sure what the answer is for golf reaching low-income kids. I know folks here in Wisconsin who think highly of local First Tee programs, but in all honesty, the kids who are accomplished in the game at the high school and collegiate levels are from families who either are members of private clubs or have parents who are golf fans/nuts and made sure their kids got access (not cheap, either) to local junior leagues. That's not to say that should be the be-all/end-all of getting low-income kids interested in golf -- not all athletic endeavors should be pursued with the idea of generating competitive little Johnnys and Jills in Whatever Sport. Athletics are worthwhile for a host of other reasons.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 04:00:36 PM by Phil McDade »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 04:09:03 PM »
I do not want to hijack the Oympic Thread but I keep thinking of what happens to the First Tee aspirants when, as young adults, they become fodder for public access golf courses.

I think back to seeing children in different parts of the world playing football(soccer) on pavement with coats as goal posts, young cricketers with the stumps painted on a wall at their backs. In New York, seeing basketball played with an astonishing amount of vigor and athleticism on beaten up courts. This, without one adult trying to administer or organize them.

This is the future of any game, let children be children and don't hand out free stuff.  What I have seen of Little League baseball makes me cringe.

Bob

Bob, if you think that kids playing on "beaten up courts" and streets is the way to go, then I guess first tee doesn't make sense.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 04:21:56 PM »
[
Bob, if you think that kids playing on "beaten up courts" and streets is the way to go, then I guess first tee doesn't make sense.

Tommy,

My point, which I agree is not well put, is that I see more pure love of the game on these beaten up courts, streets or pavements than I do in adult supervised activities.

Someone spoke of Phelps and his swimming success from an early age....it would seem to me that their is no impediment to the poorest child in finding a pool in which to swim, unlike finding a golf course.


Bob

Jason Topp

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 04:33:19 PM »
I think the best environments to spur kids participation in the game are cheap empty municipal golf courses.  I had access to these throughout my childhood and spent my summers there.

I'm not sure they exist any more. 

 


Bruce Katona

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 05:01:49 PM »
1. On 1st tee , I've done some pro bono work for a group looking to set up a chapter...good intent, didn't get off the ground - too bad as the facility was available and the volunteers in place to teach the kid and make it work.

2. I any of you in the treehouse ever have the opportunity to chat with Jim Thorpe, the Senior Tour player, on this subject, he has a very interesting take on the program and is happy to share it with you......we played in a Monda event and spant quite a bit of time discussing this very subject.....PS - Jim was just terrific to play with, a great partner and we had a very nice afternoon.

astavrides

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 05:20:04 PM »
1. On 1st tee , I've done some pro bono work for a group looking to set up a chapter...good intent, didn't get off the ground - too bad as the facility was available and the volunteers in place to teach the kid and make it work.

2. I any of you in the treehouse ever have the opportunity to chat with Jim Thorpe, the Senior Tour player, on this subject, he has a very interesting take on the program and is happy to share it with you......we played in a Monda event and spant quite a bit of time discussing this very subject.....PS - Jim was just terrific to play with, a great partner and we had a very nice afternoon.

What was Thorpy's take?

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 05:36:20 PM »
I suggest those of you who have never been to a First Tee facility (VISIT ONE) and then draw some conclusions after spending some time with the instructors and the kids.  The first tee facility we designed and built in the Lehigh Valley is one of the accomplishments I am most proud to be associated with.  The number of kids (and adults) that our facility/life skills programs have impacted is well into four figures.  To have a kid and/or their parent/guardian come up to you and thank you for what you have done for them and say how it has changed their lives is far more gratifying than any other golf project I have ever worked on. 

No program is perfect, but there are far more positives here than negatives. 

Chuck Brown

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 05:45:42 PM »
It is really, really hard to argue that a well-intentioned charity like the First Tee is in any way "bad."
Still, Geoff Shackelford's "The Future of Golf" contains a convincing discussion of the topic, respectfully casting doubt on the First Tee's merits.  I recommend the book, for about 100 reasons including that discussion.

I can't bring myself to argue against the First Tee programs, but I do wish there were more caddy programs and kids filling those programs.  That is how a very large number of players started for two or three generations in the USA.

jeffwarne

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 05:57:49 PM »
While Little League may have its' warts, TRAVEL BALL is the real mess.
At least Little League is played locally
Travel Leagues are nonsense and dilute local leagues .

The First Tee is OK and does expose kids to golf but is far from perfect-but what is?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Phil McDade

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 06:15:31 PM »
While Little League may have its' warts, TRAVEL BALL is the real mess.
At least Little League is played locally
Travel Leagues are nonsense and dilute local leagues .

The First Tee is OK and does expose kids to golf but is far from perfect-but what is?

Jeff:

Lots of kids "travel" as part of their teams for tournaments and/or contests. What kind of limits do you think are reasonable for "traveling" teams?

Kyle Harris

Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 06:27:08 PM »
I am still a bit skeptical, but the First Tee in Tampa is organized out of a local executive course I play often. The added bonus is the place is lighted and open year round - and conditioning is pretty good for such a facility.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 06:47:45 PM »
[
Bob, if you think that kids playing on "beaten up courts" and streets is the way to go, then I guess first tee doesn't make sense.

Tommy,

My point, which I agree is not well put, is that I see more pure love of the game on these beaten up courts, streets or pavements than I do in adult supervised activities.

Someone spoke of Phelps and his swimming success from an early age....it would seem to me that their is no impediment to the poorest child in finding a pool in which to swim, unlike finding a golf course.


Bob

Bob, you do have a point.  I grew up playing stick ball and pick up games.  Fortunately I was a pretty good athlete. The kids that stunk did not get a chance to play.  Organized sports do give the marginally gifted kid more of a chance to play.  I have coached kids at church and in Little League that loved the baseball and basketball but needed someone to take the time to teach them about the sport.  I think they learned something about team, responsibility, and hard work.

I also know way too many parents that push their kids in some sport so they can get a scholarship.  A year ago I received a phone call from a young girl I baptized.  She was a sophomore at a local college on a volleyball scholarship.  She had damaged her shoulder and had to sit out the season.  She wanted to give up her scholarship but her parents (who could well afford to pay her tuition) pushed to keep it.  She didn't know what to do.  After being with her I told her to do what her heart thinks is best for her.  She gave up the scholarship and her parents gave up the church. 

Lots of kids play only one sport.  They need to if they are to get scholarships.  I'd much rather see them play pick up games and be kids.

From what I know of First Tee most kids learn more than golf, they learn some good life lessons.  Those can be used even if some of the kids never pcik up another club as adults.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Phil_the_Author

Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 07:05:19 PM »
Kalen,

You stated that, "I think its good to help out disadvantaged kinds in poor neighborhoods who otherwise, wouldn't have any access to the game.  However, wouldn't the money be better spent on more pressing things in thier life? Like lack of food, healthcare, good education, clothing, training, etc.  Basketball, baseball, football, all of those things can be had for pretty much next to nothing in terms of cost.  All you need is a ball and a place to play.  As golf is so expensive between clubs, green fees, and range balls, isn't it better to allocate that money elsewhere?"

Are you stating that the 11-year old inner city youth who has now become enamored with his hero Tiger Woods should give up possibly his single opportunity at following in his footsteps and should go play football & basketball instead?

The television society that we have become has had many ill-considered consequences including poor choices for hero worship. Wanting to learn to play golf because television has brought that wonderful game into a part of the world where the only green seen is on broken down automobiles, isn't one of them.

There may be many drawbacks to the First tee program, but it is the SINGLE opportuntiy some youngsters will EVER have to experience a taste of a very different life that could be well worth aspiring to achieve.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 07:12:48 PM »
Tommy,
You hit the nail on the head - the goal of our first tee programs (and I'm sure almost all others) is NOT to turn out the next Tiger Woods.  It is to impact the lives of young people of diverse backgrounds and help them learn life skills and core values that will prepare them to be better people and positive contributors to society.  If they happen to continue to play golf later on in life, that is an added bonus!
Mark  

Kyle Harris

Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 07:29:51 PM »
My dilemma here is two-fold. My primary dilemma was first encountered in my experiences with Scouting. Essentially, that such programs become babysitting services. While the distraction is good, it does little in the long run to provide a true change in the lives of a person - especially if that person is going back to a bad situation.

Our scout troop has had numerous at-risk teenagers as members with absolutely no participation from parents. While attempts were made to gently provide help outside the general scope of the program, we really only could provide a few hours a week and one weekend a month diversion. In most situations, the family situation the teen was in for the majority of his time completely worked against the directed programming and values that Scouting provided.

This would inevitably lead to a clash of worlds and the unfortunate decision to completely cut the teen from our program as the other scouts would suffer.

My second dilemma is the seeming "square peg/round hole" idea of golf to the masses. Golf is a sport that consumes massive amounts of resources as compared to the majority of other high participation sports. We can spare the debate on the benefits for now, as the only thing that matters for this situation is the cost. In order to derive any benefits, the outlay must be excessively high to achieve a standard in which the game can even survive.

I am sure there are success stories out there, but who are the victors writing the history?

Steve Hyden

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Re: Is The First Tee the Wrong Way To Go?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2008, 08:11:50 PM »
I am still a bit skeptical, but the First Tee in Tampa is organized out of a local executive course I play often. The added bonus is the place is lighted and open year round - and conditioning is pretty good for such a facility.

My 8 YO daughter attends clinics at that Tampa facility and it has done more to develop her interest in the game than anything.  We belong to a private club, but she much prefers First Tee, where she can bang balls, play an executive course and get a little instruction from Mr. Jeff (hell, she won’t listen to me).

The clinics are not expensive but they do cost, and even the least advantaged attendees, all of whom appear to be brought there by parents, are not truly disadvantaged in the sense some are using that term here.  But any vehicle that turns kids on to golf is a good thing, and First Tee Tampa Bay does a fine job.

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