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Mike Hendren

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Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« on: July 12, 2017, 10:30:58 AM »
Having had the good fortune to play Moraine a couple of weeks ago I was anxious to see the results for the amateur qualifier held Monday - 70 players competing for 3 spots.  The medalist shot two rounds of even par - 142 and there was a 5 way playoff at 146 for the remaining two spots. 

I was told the par 71 course would be set up at approximately 7,000 yards, though it can be stretched to 7,270. 

I had expressed an opinion to my host and the head professional that the course was strong enough to host the amateur championship and perhaps even a professional major, but for the fact that logistics aren't feasible and many green to tee transitions are too intimate - an otherwise great attribute of the course.  The club has the good sense to present appropriate green speeds (10.5 on the stimp I was told) but a little tweek could send scores soaring to further test the game's best.   That said, I found the course imminently playable for my 90 +/- game. 

I urge you to enjoy Ran's review of the course, thought I must hasten to add that the club has done a wonderful job of cultivating the native grass since his photographs were taken.  Aesthetically, there are few inland courses in America that are its equal and the natives are well back from the playing corridors - even I did not lose a ball. 

Keith Foster deserves much credit for his work there.   Fwiw, it cracks my top 20, bumping several stalwarts down a notch.  There are few courses that can test the game's best but also be enjoyable time and again for the recreational golfer.  Moraine fits both bills spot on.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 10:41:35 AM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Allen

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2017, 02:40:42 PM »
I agree with that assessment.  Too few have seen this course (especially after the native grasses grew in).  I live not far from there, and it is certainly a treat when I get to play it.  I might have to go up and see if they would let me on just to do a photo tour. :)

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2017, 06:33:33 PM »

How does the course rating get to be nearly 76 with a slope of 138?


For USGA events do they take the field average into account like the R&A?

BHoover

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 06:55:11 PM »
I agree with that assessment.  Too few have seen this course (especially after the native grasses grew in).  I live not far from there, and it is certainly a treat when I get to play it.  I might have to go up and see if they would let me on just to do a photo tour. :)


I volunteer to come see the course!

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 02:40:01 PM »

How does the course rating get to be nearly 76 with a slope of 138?


For USGA events do they take the field average into account like the R&A?


Course rating is "typical score for a scratch golfer". Slope rating is an indication of how much harder it is for a bogey golfer. A high course rating could be got to either because the course is really long or because there is a lot of trouble. High slope rating is got to by having lots of trouble for bogey golfers. I don't think there is anything that would necessarily stop you from having a course that is 76/120 and another that is 70/140. Both are I imagine unusual, but not impossible. For what it's worth, 76 and 138 are pretty high. 76 more so probably, but not unheard of.


Field average - do you mean equivalent to calculating a CSS for handicap purposes? They do not. Playing conditions are I guess expected to even out across the 20 scores you have in the calculation.

BCowan

Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 03:04:45 PM »
76 seems right. It's no joke from the tips. 

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 03:44:28 PM »
76 seems right. It's no joke from the tips.


Not having played it I'm surprised it's that high.  What makes it challenging?  I've always heard NCR South referred to as the most challenging course in the area.  7200 is longer than NCR which is 7018 yards from the back.  The rating at NCR South is 74.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 05:15:42 PM by Joe_Tucholski »

Tom Allen

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2017, 10:46:34 AM »
In my opinion, it is primarily around the greens. Large, sloping greens that tend to yield more three putts than normal, and up-and-downs are also more difficult for par saves.  Some decent length on a few of the holes, too. Some greenside bunkers can be a little deep too.  NCR south is certainly a brute, but Moraine seems to be the course of the two that requires a little more precision on the second shots.

Tom Allen

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2017, 10:51:20 AM »
I thought this was nice quick read: blog from their super.  And was surprised to the photo of the crew hand-cutting poa annua out of the greens.  Is this a common practice?

http://mccagronomy.squarespace.com/


BCowan

Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 04:18:44 PM »
76 seems right. It's no joke from the tips.


Not having played it I'm surprised it's that high.  What makes it challenging?  I've always heard NCR South referred to as the most challenging course in the area.  7200 is longer than NCR which is 7018 yards from the back.  The rating at NCR South is 74.



Joe,


Sorry for the delayed response.  What makes Moraine challenging is the drive and pitch holes make the player be precise from 125 yards and in.  The fairway bunkers are beautifully edged into the landscape and they are true hazards.  Elevation changes adds to the challenge.  It's an enjoyable experience and is top 3 in the state depending on ur preferences IMO.

Anthony Fowler

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 08:34:50 PM »
Great post, Mike. I'm sorry I missed it last month.

I was in the field for the qualifier, and I am happy to confirm all of the positive things said about the course here. The greens are phenomenal, the routing makes perfect use of the elevation change, and there are a ton of fun, strategic holes. Even after walking and carrying 36 holes on a really hot humid day with some extra walking and waiting induced by a rain delay, I still wanted to go back out there and play a few more holes! I didn't play well in the qualifier, but I learned shortly afterward that I was playing with appendicitis, so at least I have an excuse, haha.

I will add that the high scores from the qualifier were partly a product of intense winds. It was howling from the south all day. Some of the long, difficult holes were into the wind, making them even tougher. 14 was essentially unreachable for me! And some of the shorter, delicate holes like 16 and 7 were downwind, and it was difficult to hold a wedge near the pin. I played a practice the day before when it was calmer, and I'd say the course played a good 4-5 shots harder per round on the day of the tournament. Given all of that, plus the heat and the rain delay, I'd say that those 146's that got into the playoff were really impressive scores.

I can also clarify that they set the course up longer than 7000 yards for the qualifier. As Mike indicated, Moraine is 7270 from the tips, and for the qualifier, they had us at about 7180. The only holes where they moved us up were 1 and 13, and both of those were for practical, logistical reasons. On 1, the back tee is actually on the far end of the practice green, so playing from there would have required closing the practice green. On 13, the back tee is extremely close to the 12th green, and 12 is a 240 yard par 3, so playing the back tee on 13 would have created safety and pace-of-play issues. In other words, although the scorecard says 7270, the longest they can set up the course for a full-field event is about 7180, and that's exactly what they did for us.

I also agree with Mike's comments on the green speeds. They keep them firm and smooth, but they're not fast. Certainly, the course would get exponentially harder if the greens were running at 12 or 12.5. 10.5 is probably the right call for enjoyable member play, but if they were a little faster, that would be a lot of fun as well. A little more speed would actually enhance the strategy by penalizing players out of position, and it would make players respect and appreciate the intricacy of those greens even more.

I hope more people get a chance to see Moraine because it is truly special. As with Mike's experience, it bumped a lot of more-famous courses down on my list that I wouldn't have expected.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 10:57:41 PM by Anthony Fowler »

ward peyronnin

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 09:59:06 PM »
Moraine is the first course I officially rated. When I totted up the cumulative it was rather high and I felt somewhat abashed at my enthusiasm and regretted I had not posted additional comments to justify ( which I frankly just forgot to do) and was a little worried my score would reflect badly on my judgement.

However when I see others reaction I am more and more confident that if I indeed erred it was not near as much as I originally feared.

I echo the top 20 suppostition 
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Moraine CC Amateur Qualifying
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2017, 01:57:35 PM »
I thought this was nice quick read: blog from their super.  And was surprised to the photo of the crew hand-cutting poa annua out of the greens.  Is this a common practice?

http://mccagronomy.squarespace.com/


Short answer: YES.


Long answer:  Yes, on new to fairly new bent greens.  Over time, in a typical situation, the poa infestation reaches a point where hand weeding would be too disruptive to the playability of the green, then it is managed as a mixed sward until it comes to dominate the putting surface, which is what you find in most older cool season courses unless they have been regrassed at some point.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

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