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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« on: August 15, 2008, 02:44:47 PM »
I was talking to a member the other day and it's only a matter of time before CPC rebuilds those great greens.   Sadly, as many of the courses in California, the dreaded nematode is inflicting its damage.  CPC like many other courses has contributed to UC Davis effort to find a solution but nothing has been developed.  What complicates the effort is that the state has outlawed Nemacure and many courses are running out or have less than a 2 year supply.

So the questions is,

What architect would take this on?
Should the club build push up or USGA spec?
Do they try and keep poa greens or go to bent?   

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2008, 03:01:21 PM »
Nematodes are virtually impossible to control without nemacure from what I know.

IMO the club should absolutely rebuild to USGA specs or some modified sand based version so they are able to leach and flush the salts out of the greens profile since theyre right on the coast. And poa will naturally be happy in that climate. I dont think they would have a hard time finding an architect either...

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 03:27:13 PM »

IMO the club should absolutely rebuild to USGA specs or some modified sand based version so they are able to leach and flush the salts out of the greens profile since theyre right on the coast. And poa will naturally be happy in that climate. I dont think they would have a hard time finding an architect either...


Ian,

Since the greens have been just fine as they are for the last 80 years, why would you "absolutely rebuild to USGA specs"?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 03:27:21 PM »
Just curious. Does anyone know if the greens have drainage tile?

Eric Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 03:53:17 PM »
Just curious. Does anyone know if the greens have drainage tile?

If I recall correctly, some (if not all by now) have drainage.

And if re-grassing, why not test the viability of fine fescue for green complexes?

John Moore II

Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 04:03:08 PM »
I would say that USGA spec greens would be the way to go, just because of the science involved in them. All I can say is that when/if the club hires someone, that person 'does it right.'

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 04:09:57 PM »
I would say that USGA spec greens would be the way to go, just because of the science involved in them. All I can say is that when/if the club hires someone, that person 'does it right.'

Uh-oh....

Take cover!!

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 04:12:57 PM »

IMO the club should absolutely rebuild to USGA specs or some modified sand based version so they are able to leach and flush the salts out of the greens profile since theyre right on the coast. And poa will naturally be happy in that climate. I dont think they would have a hard time finding an architect either...


Ian,

Since the greens have been just fine as they are for the last 80 years, why would you "absolutely rebuild to USGA specs"?

Pete,

I'm with you on this one. The phrase 'rebuild to USGA specs' should be right up there with 'god made this land for golf'. Also, if being so close to the sea were a problem then it would seem to me to be something that would have become apparent in the first few months and not after 80 years.
I would say that USGA spec greens would be the way to go, just because of the science involved in them. All I can say is that when/if the club hires someone, that person 'does it right.'

Uh-oh....

Take cover!!
Okay Kalen here it comes ;D ;D ;D
I would say that USGA spec greens would be the way to go, just because of the science involved in them. All I can say is that when/if the club hires someone, that person 'does it right.'

JKM,

the Atomic bomb had science invovled in it, would you advocate its use on this basis as well. ;) Your last line 'All I can say is that when/if the club hires someone, that person 'does it right.' Doing it right means USGA because of the science involved. What on earth are you trying to say ??? Please enlighten.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 04:14:53 PM »
Joel:

They interviewed three architectural firms for that, more than a year ago.  Unfortunately, we didn't get the job, and because we didn't I won't comment on the specifics.

The club never did notify us who they HAD hired, but I think it's the same guys they have been working with on the bunkers.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 04:24:21 PM »
Does anyone know if the work has started? or when?

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 05:16:20 PM »

CPC like many other courses has contributed to UC Davis effort to find a solution but nothing has been developed. 



Has there been any studies or direct results that show that USGA greens will prevent nematodes?

"... and I liked the guy ..."

John Moore II

Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 06:11:51 PM »

IMO the club should absolutely rebuild to USGA specs or some modified sand based version so they are able to leach and flush the salts out of the greens profile since theyre right on the coast. And poa will naturally be happy in that climate. I dont think they would have a hard time finding an architect either...


Ian,

Since the greens have been just fine as they are for the last 80 years, why would you "absolutely rebuild to USGA specs"?

Pete,

I'm with you on this one. The phrase 'rebuild to USGA specs' should be right up there with 'god made this land for golf'. Also, if being so close to the sea were a problem then it would seem to me to be something that would have become apparent in the first few months and not after 80 years.
I would say that USGA spec greens would be the way to go, just because of the science involved in them. All I can say is that when/if the club hires someone, that person 'does it right.'

Uh-oh....

Take cover!!
Okay Kalen here it comes ;D ;D ;D
I would say that USGA spec greens would be the way to go, just because of the science involved in them. All I can say is that when/if the club hires someone, that person 'does it right.'

JKM,

the Atomic bomb had science invovled in it, would you advocate its use on this basis as well. ;) Your last line 'All I can say is that when/if the club hires someone, that person 'does it right.' Doing it right means USGA because of the science involved. What on earth are you trying to say ??? Please enlighten.

The "do it right" comment has nothing to do with spec greens. Though I know some places when they rebuild do rebuild with Spec greens and subair systems, etc.  The do it right comment was meant to say that who ever they hire to do the work is someone who will keep the course in the same character as when it was originally built and not make the greens table flat and such. Just don't get an "Open Doctor" to do the work. Keep it to the original spirit of the property and simply update the turf and such.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 06:13:15 PM »
Why USGA specification greens?


Before I start, I dont know any details concerning CPC and their greens. This is all based off of pure sound agronomics.

If the situation is...

1. They have a severe infestation of nematodes
2. Supply of Nemacur is running out and they cannot buy it anymore because its banned
3. The infestation is resulting in poor turf conditions
4. They are entertaining the thought of coring out the greens cavities to completely rebuild the greens and get rid of the nematode population

....I would absolutely rebuild to USGA specs or some modified sand based version. And heres why...

One of the most important factors of a greens performance is its ability to move water through the profile. If the green holds onto water too much it becomes anaroebic (not enough oxygen). Then the super is constantly trying to aerify to create channels through the profile for the water to move through and all you club members out there know how you feel about "the holes" when youre bitching and moaning after an aerification and you make the supers life a living hell.


"Ian,
Since the greens have been just fine as they are for the last 80 years, why would you "absolutely rebuild to USGA specs"?"

Pete.....Because in their situation they have nematodes and by coring out and rebuilding they are getting rid of the nematode population. If they
            didnt have a nematode problem, were just regrassing and the old pushups moved water well through the profile. Then yes, keeping the       
            pushups is a great cost efficient option.


"Pete,
I'm with you on this one. The phrase 'rebuild to USGA specs' should be right up there with 'god made this land for golf'. Also, if being so close to the sea were a problem then it would seem to me to be something that would have become apparent in the first few months and not after 80 years."

Jon.......Dont knock "USGA specs". They work and work well. The basis behind "USGA spec" is to allow water to percolate well through the
            macropores and retain plant available water in the micropores. Its an ideal mix of sand and peat to move water quickly, but not too
            quickly. Yes, straight pushups were the norm eighty years ago and were successful. But those greens were more like our approaches of
            today. The mowing heights were not demanding sooo much stress from the grass plant. Greens were much happier eighty years ago
            being mowed at half inch. And to push a green to perform at its absolute best, salt management is key especially right on the sea.
            Having pushup greens that didnt move water through the profile and didnt have drainage next to the ocean would be a nightmare.



I know alot of us on here are minimalist and love the classics, and alot of you like to hear of a club still having its original pushup greens and how great they are. But the reality is that the supers that inherited pushups are constantly trying to aereify to modify the pushups profile with sand so that they have somewhere to move the water.

Also, alot of clubs with the pushups are installing the XDG drainage which is just channels of sand laid out in a 10 foot herringbone so that the water can be moved. Remember Oakmont last year during the US Open? Those brown lines on the green were XDG drainage lines because Oakmont demands so much out of those greens performance-wise they needed to move water.


To sum it up....

If a club doesnt already have USGA spec greens, the super is constantly striving to modify his pushup to achieve what a USGA green can already do. Move water.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 06:16:05 PM by Ian Larson »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2008, 06:53:09 PM »
Ian:

Just FYI, we rebuilt the greens at SFGC a few years back to address a similar nematode problem.  Instead of rebuilding them all to USGA specs, we simply took 2-3 inches of material off the greens (basically the last 20 years of topdressing material, and the gassed netmatodes), re-floated the greens in the native sand mix they were built out of to begin with, and replanted them with A4 bentgrass.  It seems to have worked just fine that way.

By not going to USGA specs we were able to preserve the contours of the greens more easily, because we didn't dig them up nearly as severely.  The native sand under SFGC is quite good, probably a little tight to pass for USGA specs, but the excellent surface drainage of the putting surfaces probably makes up for that.  (I would think the latter is true for Cypress Point as well -- no flat greens there! -- although I doubt the original greens materials were as good.)

USGA greens are fine but they are not the only potential solution out there -- or are they, in your view?

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2008, 09:22:46 PM »
Tom,

No I dont think they are the only option. Sand is sand and soil is soil. If a site has native soil with a certain sand content that drains decently thats all that is needed. It by no means has to be some expensive mix imported with a "USGA Spec" sticker slapped on it.

Honestly, if CPC is seriously considering rebuilding the greens its possible they are trying two kill two birds with one stone. Perhaps the super is trying to solve the nematode problem while at the same time converting the greens to a good sand base with a drainage system?

But if the greens do drain well there then I would say gas the nematodes. And just like you said about SFGC Tom, they could strip the top off and maintain the green contours more precisely.

Besides Nemacur and Mocap being unavailable now ( which are granular contact nematicides) I know there is a gas called Telone used for fumigating. But as far as I know I thought Telone was only to be used on sod farms and restricted for golf.

Tom,  would you by any chance know of the gas used at SFGC? If they have something that could be legally used to fumigate the greens. That by far would be the best option so as to more easily preserve the contours.

Tom,  also,  how successful do you think the stripping, tilling and regrassing is?  And what I mean by successful is that are you truly able to precisely preserve the original contours?  And to your knowledge did the super face any agronomic challenges as far as tilling the top and not touching the bottom 12", creating a difference in the bulk density of the profile? 

I know other clubs have thought of this as a possibilty but there werent many success stories out there to be convinced.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2008, 10:15:26 PM »
Ian:

SFGC did the fumigation when you could still use the old methyl bromide.  I don't know if there is a similar solution available now.

You would have to ask the superintendent at SFGC some of your more technical questions.  Certainly, after we removed the 2-3 inches of material we tilled up the greens a bit before re-floating them ... we didn't go down REALLY deep, but since it is all native soil I don't know where you would stop. 

(In a similar vein, when I was on my trip to Britain back in 1982, Gary Player was quoted in the papers saying there was "too much sand" in the bunkers at Royal Troon before the Open.  The head greenkeeper, asked to respond, replied that the sand went all the way to China as far as he knew.)  :)

We have rebuilt greens contours to USGA specs, too, most recently at The Valley Club (both times with Ed Connor doing surveying of the greens), and I can tell you that the greens where we only took up a couple of inches of material were a lot easier to put back together to their original contours.  Sadly, though, not many courses have such great soil underneath.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2008, 10:43:52 PM »
very very informative read...i hope work starts after sept 5th

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2008, 11:01:36 PM »
There are no plans as far as my member knows to start construction anytime at least this year.  My feeling is they are 2 maybe 3 years away.

I can't imagine they would build them USGA spec.  With those contours, it would be impossible to rebuild #8 and especially #9.  #1, #4 and #18 would also be tough.

Tom:   I don't think they are going to use the guys that did the bunkers?  They did some of that work in house with Jim Langley acting as the liasion and used Bunker Masters to core them out and put in the drainage.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2008, 10:25:36 AM »
Why USGA specification greens?



Jon.......Dont knock "USGA specs". They work and work well. The basis behind "USGA spec" is to allow water to percolate well through the
            macropores and retain plant available water in the micropores. Its an ideal mix of sand and peat to move water quickly, but not too
            quickly. Yes, straight pushups were the norm eighty years ago and were successful. But those greens were more like our approaches of
            today. The mowing heights were not demanding sooo much stress from the grass plant. Greens were much happier eighty years ago
            being mowed at half inch. And to push a green to perform at its absolute best, salt management is key especially right on the sea.
            Having pushup greens that didnt move water through the profile and didnt have drainage next to the ocean would be a nightmare.



I know alot of us on here are minimalist and love the classics, and alot of you like to hear of a club still having its original pushup greens and how great they are. But the reality is that the supers that inherited pushups are constantly trying to aereify to modify the pushups profile with sand so that they have somewhere to move the water.


If a club doesnt already have USGA spec greens, the super is constantly striving to modify his pushup to achieve what a USGA green can already do. Move water.



Ian,

I am not knocking USGA specs but at the same time I don't believe that they are the all singing all dancing one size fits all solution that you do.

I am very well aware of what they are and how they work. Some have sand and peat (peat being very questionable from an environmental point here in Europe) and some types have pure sand. Indeed, the USGA have stated that they would like to use soil or other additives in their specs and so move towards the german FLL specs.

It is however IMO questionable to produce conditions for growing grass that make it difficult if not impossible to maintain any sort of cover without artificial watering or the use of P containing fertilisers for fine turf grasses.
Bad pushups can be a nightmare as you say but if done rightly they are far superior to USGA in that they require less fertilisers, are far more desease resitant and produce just as good a putting surface that is similar to the surroundings.

I would take issue with your last statement 'If a club doesnt already have USGA spec greens, the super is constantly striving to modify his pushup to achieve what a USGA green can already do. Move water' as it gives the impression that with USGA specs the super can sit on his ass enjoying a care free life. This, as I am quite sure you are aware, is not the case but is used by people hell bent on pushing USGA specs on the ignorant at all costs. USGA is not all good, it has a whole host of problems that come with it.

JKM,

what about the bomb ;D and how do you do that coloured writing thing ???

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2008, 11:45:51 AM »
One might assume that CPC has naturally sand based greens, is this not true?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

John Handley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2008, 12:21:07 PM »
I must state that I do not have absolute knowledge but I have heard that Crenshaw declined and they may be going with Tom Fazio.
2024 Line Up: Spanish Oaks GC, Cal Club, Cherokee Plantation, Huntercombe, West Sussex, Hankley Common, Royal St. Georges, Sunningdale New & Old, CC of the Rockies, Royal Lytham, Royal Birkdale, Formby, Royal Liverpool, Swinley Forest, St. George's Hill, Berkshire Red, Walton Heath Old, Austin GC,

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2008, 01:39:12 PM »
Jon,

I knew a European would respond to my comments in a negative way because it seems like Im endorsing the USGA or USGA spec greens or even American greenkeeping altogether. Im not endorsing anything other than sound agronomics. Whether its on this side of the pond or yours.

Like I said to Mr. Doak, sand is sand and soil is soil. It doesnt matter if its in the states or in Europe. Europe doesnt have "special" sand that they grow turf on. And the USGA doesnt have a "special" mix of sand and peat.

You have to take the sand and soil for what it is and analyze their physical attributes.

Jon if you gave me a green that was straight sand and the water percolated through the profile at 3 feet an hour, that green would be performing unacceptably.

If you gave me a brand new pushup green made of soil and no sand the water would percolate at 1inch per hour, that green would also be performing unacceptably.

Do you see where Im going here?  Its all about balancing the two extremes. Moving the plant unavailable water and retaining the plant avilable  water.

Back to a green that is straight sand. That comes with many problems. Straight sand has little to no ability to hold on to nutrients because of its electrical charges and sand seive analysis. Because of that fertilizing and watering is needed more frequently. Because of that I personally would modify that root zone with organic material and humic acids. The organic material would slow down the percolation rate of the water and the humic acid would create more cation exchange sites on the sand molecules to grab and hold onto nutrients.

Back to the brand new pushup green made of soil with little sand. Yes Jon, you are absolutely correct in that the soil green is rich in nutrients and requires less fertilization. And thats because its just the oppesite as the sand green. The soil has the great ability to grab and hold onto nutrients because of the amount of cation exchange sites on each soil molecule. But that green is also going to move water very slowly through the profile and it will only get worse because the soil will compact much more than the sand will. The other problem is that the soil will also retain alot of the water in the profile for a longer time, keeping it wet.

A wet green that moves water very slowly is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially if the green is in a hot a humid enviornment. Then it becomes an incubator for disease pathogens. While the green stays wet, the water molecules are filling up the macropores which are supposed to used as the ventilation tubes for the green. And the water in the macropores is also not even able to be taken up by the roots, its useless water. Clogging the ventilation doesnt allow oxygen in and it doesnt allow CO2 out. Then you have anaroebic conditions which lead to blacklayer which leads to poor turf quality.

In the case of a soil green thats drains poorly which causes that trainwreck what do you think should happen? Ammend the profile with sand!

Forget about anybodys damn "specs". Lets finally think about how nutrients and water react physiologically to different soils.


...."I would take issue with your last statement 'If a club doesnt already have USGA spec greens, the super is constantly striving to modify his pushup to achieve what a USGA green can already do. Move water' as it gives the impression that with USGA specs the super can sit on his ass enjoying a care free life."....

That statement is so far from the truth. My whole point was that if a super has old pushup greens that drain slowly, his whole M.O. is to perform the needed cultural practices to get that water to move through the profile quicker. The super that has the USGA spec green already has that. And because he already has that by no means he can sit on his ass. That statement is so offbase.


..."It is however IMO questionable to produce conditions for growing grass that make it difficult if not impossible to maintain any sort of cover without artificial watering or the use of P containing fertilisers for fine turf grasses.
Bad pushups can be a nightmare as you say but if done rightly they are far superior to USGA in that they require less fertilisers, are far more desease resitant and produce just as good a putting surface that is similar to the surroundings."...

...Im going to have to disagree again Jon. Lets start with disease. I would have to challenge you to produce an accredited study that has concluded scientifically that a pushup green is far more disease resistent. Thats such a broad statement, broad statements should never be made in this business. mainly because what works in one area of the world doesnt work in another. Every scenario has to adapt to its enviornment. Disease pressure come down to the three points. The host, the pathogen and the enviornment. That makes pushup greens just as susceptible as a USGA spec green. Again, I would love to see some data on that.

And could use please explain to me how a bad pushup green could have been done better. I would think a pushup green is what it is. If the soil in the area seems suitable for a green, then the soil is pushed up and shaped. If you are trying to tell me that at the time of construction the soil is modified with sand OR that the super with a pushup is aerifying and topdressing regularly to incorporate sand into the profile. Then Jon you are proving my point. The super with a pushup that drains slow is always striving to achieve what the super with a USGA green already has.

Pushups require less fertilizers because as I said the soil has the ability to retain nutrients. But that doesnt mean that the nutrients in the soil are available to the plants. Nutrients get bound up in the soil and only build up over time. Unless the super is aware of this and is doing the necessary practices to make sure that the nutrients get solubilized and plant available, then you have a completely inefficient use of fertilizers.
Stateside or in Europe. Its innefficient because there are tons of nutrients in the soil reserves that can be used if solubilized. Its free fertilizer! But most supers would just fert the greens on their regular schedule without paying attention to this. If a super does not know what a saturated paste extract soil test is then he has no idea of what his soil already has that is plant available.

In support of USGA greens. They are far more superior in nutrient efficiency. It has been proven over and over again that spoon feeding a green with chelated liquids is the most efficient way to fertilize. And with the rising cost cost of fertilizer its imperative to be efficient. Its imperative to know exactly whats already available to the plant in the soil and then to supplement that with small spoon fed / frequent applications of fert. And for your information Jon I dont put any phosphurus on my greens. Its already naturally there in the soil.

Artificial watering? If by that you mean syringing and misting the greens everyday then there again Ill throw the efficiency card out there. You spoon feed water just like you do fert. The plant only needs so much in certain spots at certain times. And that has alot to do with areas of the world. Southern California rarely sees "natural" water.

My girlfriends getting pissed at me blogging so Ill end it with that!


P.S.    If I was told I had to choose between managing a USGA spec green or a soil pushup, but the stipulation was that Somebody else were to
          choose where in the world I had to do it.....I would choose the USGA spec every time. The mere fact that I know it drains appropriately
          and is efficient with nutrients makes it adaptable to any enviornment or situation.

          But no, I dont think that USGA spec is the be all end all of green construction, however a well draining one is.








 

« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 01:46:58 PM by Ian Larson »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2008, 02:14:07 PM »
This is all well and good about USGA spec greens, but is not going this route the most invasive? For a course such as CPC, I would think this would be the most hazardous route if the preservation of the features of the greens are of the utmost importance, no?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Moore II

Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2008, 02:49:01 PM »
David--I am sure they could use some type of surveying system in order to very precisely map the greens and contours. I'm sure it would cost a substantial amount to map the greens every foot, or however you would decide to do it, but for some reason, I don't think another $25k would break the bank out there :)

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rebuilding the greens at Cypress Point
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2008, 03:10:57 PM »
David,

You are right that would be more invasive....and costly. And, as Mr. Doak and I discussed, if its possible for them to strip the top 3" or so the original subtle contours will remain more in tact. But thats all dependent on if they can actually fumigate the greens in order to kill nematodes. I dont have anything concrete to support this but I would bet being so close to the ocean that these toxic chemicals may not be an option. These chemicals will kill fish and wildlife if leached into water supplies.

If they were to opt to completely rebuild its not an impossible feat to accomplish as far as maintaining contours. The technology is there to do it. I think Mr. Doak would agree with me that it would come down to having an exceptional contractor to carry out the work with precision.

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