Best, Most Fun, and Favorite Courses

[wsmorrison]

Because I can play golf barefooted with close friends, play cross-country golf with dozens of routing combinations, see some fantastic artwork and specimen trees throughout the course and play basketball, squash, tennis, swim, bowl and have ice cream from an old fashioned parlor in the Playhouse, while enjoying a unique 13-green/18-hole layout on one of the most beautiful properties in America with incredible views overlooking the Hudson and Palisades.  It is pure fun...even a crotchety old cumudgeon will feel like a kid again with shoes off and rolling down hills.  There is nothing like it!

By the way, I completely disagree with you about Shinnecock not being fun (it just isn't as much fun as Pocantico Hills).  Shinnecock is enjoyable difficulty, a hallmark of Flynn.  It is easy to design difficult golf courses such as Winged Foot West and Baltusrol Lower.  It is not at all easy to design enjoyable difficulty such as Merion, Shinnecock Hills, Pine Valley, Oakmont and a select few others.  Unlike Merion, Pine Valley and Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills is playable by all ages and all classes of golfers.  It is a championship test for all players and yet a joy to play.  The sense of naturalism, use of topography, judicious use of naturally looking man-made features, the tree plan (even if it wasn't implemented) and variety is incredible.  When the greens are all fully expanded out, when the topline of the right fairway bunker on 5 is returned, the tee on 11 lowered and fairways expanded, watch out.  It is the finest course in the world.  However it doesn't quite make the most fun course in the world.  It is close though 

[Tom Huckaby]

Because I can play golf barefooted with close friends, play cross-country golf with dozens of routing combinations, see some fantastic artwork and specimen trees throughout the course and play basketball, squash, tennis, swim, bowl and have ice cream from an old fashioned parlor in the Playhouse, while enjoying a unique 13-green/18-hole layout on one of the most beautiful properties in America with incredible views overlooking the Hudson and Palisades.  It is pure fun...even a crotchety old cumudgeon will feel like a kid again with shoes off and rolling down hills.  There is nothing like it!

By the way, I completely disagree with you about Shinnecock not being fun (it just isn't as much fun as Pocantico Hills).  Shinnecock is enjoyable difficulty, a hallmark of Flynn.  It is easy to design difficult golf courses such as Winged Foot West and Baltusrol Lower.  It is not at all easy to design enjoyable difficulty such as Merion, Shinnecock Hills, Pine Valley, Oakmont and a select few others.  Unlike Merion, Pine Valley and Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills is playable by all ages and all classes if golfers.  It is a championship test for all players and yet a joy to play.  The sense of naturalism, use of topography, judicious use of man-made bunkers, tree plan (even if it wasn't implemented) and variety is incredible.  When the greens are all fully expanded out, when the topline of the right fairway bunker on 5 is returned, the tee on 11 lowered and fairways expanded, watch out.  It is the finest course in the world.  However it doesn't quite make the most fun course in the world.  It is close though 

Now just wait a second here....

1.  I didn't ask why Pocantico Hills is most fun.  I accepted you must have good reason for that.  That's for stating that, though.

2. I also didn't say Shinnecock Hills was not fun.  In fact, read my earlier post in this thread - I used it as an example of fun, just a different type of fun.

You did answer my question anyway.  I just wonder why you included 3 courses in two categories but just one in the "fun".  Why not put Shinnecock here also?  You would have saved me a lot of trouble.

 

[Jeff Evagues]

Best: Oakmont, followed closely by Sebonack
Favorite: Kapalua Plantation

[Chris Kane]

Best: The Old Course
Most Fun: Elie
Favourite: Prestwick/Dornoch

[Tim Leahy]

I think of best as the course I would pick to play if I only had one round to play. As opposed to the fun course that I would pick if I had to pick one course to play for the rest of my life. Favorite would be a combination of the two.

Best-Olympic Club
Most Fun-Lake Chabot
Favorite-Spyglass Hill
 

[Anthony Fowler]

I suspect that those who say that fun, best and favorite are synonymous are not being completely honest.  Fun, greatness, and personal preference are not independent but they are different.

As others have mentioned, "best" may often incorporate how others view the course, while "favorite" does not.

In my opinion, there are certain characteristics that courses in the "best" category should have that are unnecessary for "fun" or "favorite" courses.  The "best" courses should be good tests of golf, meaning good shots should be rewarded over marginal ones, and marginal ones over poor ones.  On the "best" courses, the best players should differentiate themselves in medal play.  There is also some element of length and difficulty involved in great courses over fun or favorite ones.  These courses do not have to be long, but they should not be overly susceptible to low scores or easily overpowered by skilled players.

Fun and favorite courses need not meet any criteria.  They can be 5000 yards with all sorts of blind shots, funny bounces, funny lies, quirky holes, etc.

My lists of most fun, favorite, and best courses played overlap quite a bit.  However, I frequently walk off a course and say that it was fun but not a great course, or vice versa.

Bethpage, Torrey, and Pinehurst are great courses that many don't think are very fun.  

Pasatiempo, Ballyneal, Yale, Eastward Ho!, and Rustic Canyon are right at the top of my fun list but no my "best" list (I'm going to GCA hell for saying this.)

There are very few courses that are very strong in both categories: Prairie Dunes, Merion, Pacific Dunes . . .  

[Tom Huckaby]

I suspect that those who say that fun, best and favorite are synonymous are not being completely honest.  Fun, greatness, and personal preference are not independent but they are different.

As others have mentioned, "best" may often incorporate how others view the course, while "favorite" does not.

In my opinion, there are certain characteristics that courses in the "best" category should have that are unnecessary for "fun" or "favorite" courses.  The "best" courses should be good tests of golf, meaning good shots should be rewarded over marginal ones, and marginal ones over poor ones.  On the "best" courses, the best players should differentiate themselves in medal play.  There is also some element of length and difficulty involved in great courses over fun or favorite ones.  These courses do not have to be long, but they should not be overly susceptible to low scores or easily overpowered by skilled players.

Fun and favorite courses need not meet any criteria.  They can be 5000 yards with all sorts of blind shots, funny bounces, funny lies, quirky holes, etc.

My lists of most fun, favorite, and best courses played overlap quite a bit.  However, I frequently walk off a course and say that it was fun but not a great course, or vice versa.

Bethpage, Torrey, and Pinehurst are great courses that many don't think are very fun.  

Pasatiempo, Ballyneal, Yale, Eastward Ho!, and Rustic Canyon are right at the top of my fun list but no my "best" list (I'm going to GCA hell for saying this.)

There are very few courses that are very strong in both categories: Prairie Dunes, Merion, Pacific Dunes . . .  

That is all very well said.

However...given I was the ONLY one who made fun and best synonymous - and you not only mischaracterized my position but called be dishonest - I feel compelled to respond.  My seconds will be contacting yours.   

1.  note I only made best and most fun synonymous.  Favorite to me is necessarily different.

2. I also meant it in a purely logical sense; that is, if golf is meant to be fun (and what else should it be?), then how can most fun NOT equal best?

3.  In a pure parsing of words sense, I believe I have this correct.  BUT if you read my other posts, I have realized that this parsing of words is stupid.  As correct as I am, it doesn't mean as much as separating them, as you and others have.

This is all 100% honest, btw.

Need my seconds still contact yours?

TH

[wsmorrison]

Sorry, Tom.  You were right and I was wrong about your characterization of Shinnecock Hills.  See, I can admit being wrong on those very rare occasions when I am 

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry, Tom.  You were right and I was wrong about your characterization of Shinnecock Hills.  See, I can admit being wrong on those very rare occasions when I am 

Love it!

Now can you teach this skill to Mr. Mucci?

 

[wsmorrison]

Nah, that dog is way too old to learn new tricks    Of course I still wish him all the health and happiness a man can stand!

[Sean_A]

I am curious... for all of you who give different answers for most fun and best, how do you separate the two?

I'll pick on Chip (and I mean this in good fun):  why is St. Andrews the most fun but not the best?  Why is Pine Valley the best but not the most fun?

I think I know the answer, but I want to make sure.

TH

AwsHuckster

Like Tom D my best list is different from my favourite list because I try to think a bit of what others may think for the best list.  Additionally, other factors weigh more heavily for my favourite other than just the course.  Mind you, because there are so few top players, what they think is of much lesser importance to me than the bogey player.  Also like Tom, my list has many overlapping courses. 

Favourites (among many others): Sandwich, St Enodoc, North Berwick, Pennard, Lahinch, Kington, Huntercombe, Swinley Forest, Addington & Brora

Best: Sandwich, Enniscrone, St Enodoc, North Berwick, Prestwick, Merion, Pennard, Portstewart, Ballybunion & Portrrush with Ballybunion and Merion being the two best I have seen.

Of course, my opinion changes as circumstances change.

Ciao

[Tim Gavrich]

Best (I don't see any personal difference between "best" and "favorite) five I've played (more or less):
Yale
Newport
Pinehurst No. 2
TOC
Sunningdale (Old)


Most fun five I've played (more or less):
Yale
Shelter Harbor
Sunningdale (Old)
Crail (Balcomie)
Tobacco Road

[Michael Mimran]

Most Fun - Dornoch.  I felt like a little kid playing it (literally smiling the whole way around).  I dont know if part of the excitement was due to the fact that I had landed in Scotland about 4 hours earlier from NY and was on my first links course ever, but the imagination that was required on the approach shots and the creativity.  I just had so much fun trying to figure the course out.

[Stu Grant]

Best: Oakmont
Fun: Tobacco Road, Kingsley Club, Plainfield, Somerset Hills
Favorite: See Fun

[Wayne_Kozun]

Most Fun - Cruden Bay

[Tommy Williamsen]

I feel lucky.  My favorite place to play is a club to which I belong: Musgrove Mill.  I have been fortunate to have played some of the best courses in the world.  But if I had to choose which course is the most fun and offers some of the best golf, it would be Musgrove Mill.  The interesting thing is that most of the members feel the same way.

[Joey Smith]

Best - Riviera Country Club

Most Fun - - Regatta Bay - Not highly rated, but always have a blast here.

Favorite  - Devil's Pulpit, Ballyneal

[Ash Towe]

Best-Muirfield

Most fun-CPC

Favourite-CPC and Royal Melbourne West

[Anthony Fowler]

Hi Tom,

I didn't mean to target you or call you a liar, and I apologize for that.

I also didn't realize that you were the only one putting forth this sentiment.  Given that, I should have more carefully responded to your post. 

While you say that great and fun are synonymous, you yourself probably assign different connotations to each word. Also, you yourself have probably characterized courses (maybe not out loud) as being "fun" and "great" without using the words interchangeably.  This is what I meant when I said you were not entirely honest.

To respond to your post, you have not won the war on logic because we are not operating with the same definitions.  For you, perhaps all you want is fun golf, but there are other aims in GCA which I previously addressed such as "a good test of golf."

Assume that I accept that the only goal of GCA is fun and that this should be the only metric (not a bad metric IMO). Then there is still value is using differing synonyms to describe courses, just as we use "cute", "pretty", and "beautiful" to describe women.  These words may be hard to separate by "parsing", but they certainly mean different things in this context.

[David Neveux]

I'd like to do a Michigan List

Best :  Crystal Downs
MF :     Kingsley Club
Fav:     Greywalls


Really they are interchangeable, but I guess if you were forced to categorize the three. 

[Bill_McBride]

Best:             Cypress Point

Most fun:       North Berwick

Favorite:        St Andrews Old

Favorite nine:  Pasatiempo Back

[Andrew Hastie]

Most Fun: St. Andrews
Best: Cypress Point
Favorite: Pacific Dunes

[Andy Troeger]

I think my sentiment is similar to Tom H., but I would use the words differently. For me best and favorite would be the same, but most fun could be a little different. I actually use "fun" as a category when I do my list of "favorite" or "best" golf courses. My logic I guess is that my "favorite" courses are the "best" ones I've played. I feel like I'm creating a word twist or something.

In any case, the best, my favorite, and most fun course I've played is Cypress Point; #2 is Pebble Beach, and #3 is Chambers Bay. After that it might get muddled up a little bit more.

[Tim Bert]

Sorry to force you into that 4th category, Bill!

[Sandy Smith]

Best  Pine Valley , Pebble

Most fun  North Berwick , Capilano

Favorite  PV , Royal Dornoch