[Bruce Leland]

This golf course was over-hyped and is over-rated in my modest, one-play opinion.   It's a clumsy golf course on a clumsy site. 

Loved the dell hole - that's about it.

Mike

Mike,

The day I played is shown in the above pictures.  It is the last day the course is opened for the year, November in Wisconsin,  notice that the fescue is cut low, the weather is perfect and I was lucky enough to play with some great guys for free that set up our round with a perfect set of tees for maximum enjoyment.  With all that said - I see it as the finest modern course outside Ballyneal I have ever played.

John, that is high praise indeed.  I've not played Erin Hills or Ballyneal so our reference points are dissimilar.  Have you played Sand Hills or Sutton Bay?  Just curious as to whether those two modern minimalist designs are included in your frame of reference.  Thanks

[John Kavanaugh]

No, I have not played Sand Hills (just took a pass on a round next month) or Sutton Bay.  I think the fescue being cut when I played Erin Hills made a huge difference plus the genius of the set up created by Mr. Moore. 

I am curious if the destruction of the esker is an example of Mike Davis losing control of his ego.

[Scott Weersing]

Gee, too bad Erin Hills won't be eligible for Golf Digest's Best Remodel award.

The course has been open only two seasons and now they have to redo things.
What does that tell you about the original design? I guess it was not as good as people thought when it was being built.

Or are they doing things to make it more tournament friendly?

They don't have to change things at Chambers Bay do they?

[Dan Moore]

They overdid minimalism by not doing enough to begin with.  I prefer it that way to messing with natural features that can't be brought back once they are changed.  For that reason I wish they would leave the Esker on 17 alone.   Some of the changes to create more pin positions and eliminate blind approaches do appear to be motivated by wanting to make the course more tournament friendly.    In the end I think we will need to reserve judgement until the tweaks are complete and the tourney comes.  Mike Davis will have a field day with the variety of ways the course can be set up and how dramatically different holes can play day to day based on which tees are selected.  Compared to the lack of variety at Oakland Hills this will be fun to see. 

Save the Esker!!!

[Jim Franklin]

JB-

Do you consider Victoria National a modern course? I liked Erin Hills too, but there are several modern I put ahead of it (Ballyneal, Sand Hills, Sebonack, Pacific Dunes, Victoria National,  Chambers Bay, and Pete Dye to name a few).

[Chuck Brown]

Calling all Badgers, and lovers of cheese:  You have 10 rounds of golf to play in mid-south Wisconsin.  How many do you play at Erin Hills, versus University Ridge?  Why?

[Jim Colton]

I was just out at EH for the first time this past week.  I thought the course was fine as is, but if they in fact built the course to land a US Open, then they'll make the changes they need to make to best improve their chances of getting and hosting a US Open.

Speaking of EH, the starter told us Mr. Lang, who according to him 'basically designed the first course', would probably be out on his tractor that day clearing land and finding fairways for a second course.  It would be on the land closer to the entrance, I believe.  When asked who would be designing the course (other than Lang, of course), he threw out a few names of some of the tops in the business today.

PS. I walked, but one other guy in my group took a cart.  His jaw dropped when he found out it was $32 + tax per person.  What's the profit margin on $64 per electric cart for 4 1/2 hours?

[Brad Swanson]

Calling all Badgers, and lovers of cheese:  You have 10 rounds of golf to play in mid-south Wisconsin.  How many do you play at Erin Hills, versus University Ridge?  Why?

None at either, and I play those 10 at Lawsonia.

Cheers,
Brad

[Eric_Terhorst]

I play those 10 at Lawsonia.

Considering that you could play 2 for every 1 at EH, you're on to something Brad, but I'd encourage you to give at least a couple to EH

John K,

Nobody called me about my suggested rerouting of the front nine, so I guess it wasn't considered
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31981.msg627226.html#msg627226

On their list, certainly I would agree with changes to #2 green.  Eliminate the Dell hole and we've solved your problem with the Bye.  I guess #10 green could be re-examined.

Changing #17 esker is rude.  All that hole needs is more fairway to the right (south?), like they're proposing for 18. 

[JWinick]

Anyone want to go up and play there soon?  It's an easy drive for me.

[Phil McDade]

Calling all Badgers, and lovers of cheese:  You have 10 rounds of golf to play in mid-south Wisconsin.  How many do you play at Erin Hills, versus University Ridge?  Why?

None at either, and I play those 10 at Lawsonia.

Cheers,
Brad

I'm with Swanson; I haven't even been to Erin Hills, and can't imagine choosing URidge over it for even one round.

I'd take Old Hickory -- site of this year's Wisconsin State AM -- over URidge 10 out of 10 times.

[Ryan Farrow]

?

Ryan,

I'm the guy in the white pants and blue blouse.  Using my fat ass as a sense of scale you can see the green is of adequate size for a sub 100 yd approach.

I suppose your right, but it is still visually impotent.

[John Kavanaugh]

JB-

Do you consider Victoria National a modern course? I liked Erin Hills too, but there are several modern I put ahead of it (Ballyneal, Sand Hills, Sebonack, Pacific Dunes, Victoria National,  Chambers Bay, and Pete Dye to name a few).

Jim,

I've given up trying to rank courses where I am a member.  I do prefer Erin Hills to Pacific but like the Bandon Resort more than a trip to Lawsonia and Erin combined.  In fairness to Lawsonia I am a member of a L&M course and I doubt if a one trick pony team of architects ever existed.  It's a great trick, but we get it already.

[Jim Franklin]

I can appreciate that, but I still prefer VN to EH.

[John Kavanaugh]

I can appreciate that, but I still prefer VN to EH.

I'm sure that on most days in November I would too.  Nothing tires me more than courses that only are open when they can present their best foot forward.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

A slight enlarging of 2 green is a good thing. Eliminating some of the ridge that makes some the 2nd shot blind would help as well. I think the blind shot for a large number of players to that green after the unusual first hole makes for a very slow start pace of play wise. This is a daily fee after all.

[Mike Hendren]

They overdid minimalism by not doing enough to begin with. 

Dan,

Bingo, bingo, bingo.  That's primarily my basis for calling the course "clumsy."

BTW, I'm with Brad on Lawsonia.  I'd to 9 Lawsonia to 1 Erin Hills.  I was in Madison Tuesday and hated that I didn't have an extra day to drive through the corn fields over to Green Lake.

Mike

[Jim Colton]

Just a rhetorical question...if the property is one of the top five properties that Ron Whitten has ever seen (I'm assuming he's seen a lot), shouldn't it be the architect's job to ensure that the resulting golf course is at least that good?

[John Kavanaugh]

Just a rhetorical question...if the property is one of the top five properties that Ron Whitten has ever seen (I'm assuming he's seen a lot), shouldn't it be the architect's job to ensure that the resulting golf course is at least that good?

Jim,

What makes you think it isn't? 

[Jim Colton]

John,

 I never said that it was or it wasn't, although I wasn't completely blown away by the course to the level one might expect after setting foot on a 'top 5' property.  I was just throwing it out there to see if that's a fair way to judge how well the architect did on any project...whether they got the most out of the property they were given. 

With respect to Erin Hills, I think they've achieved or will achieve the owner's primary objectives...a natural course in terms of moving as little dirt as possible and a course that could host major tournaments (US Open's).  Whether or not meeting those objectives also results in having the best course possible is up for debate (it seems like the changes are being made to meet the US Open objective, not necessarily to make the course better).  Hypothetically, if I had owned the land, my primary concern would be to try to build the best course possible (for example Doak at Ballyneal), even if meant moving a little dirt to improve on what was there.  I just don't get the need to take the minimalist thing to a non-dirt moving extreme.  And if the tournaments come along with it, that's just gravy.  But it's Bob Lang's land, it's his vision, he can do what he wants with it.

Just a rhetorical question...if the property is one of the top five properties that Ron Whitten has ever seen (I'm assuming he's seen a lot), shouldn't it be the architect's job to ensure that the resulting golf course is at least that good?

Jim,

What makes you think it isn't? 

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob Lang was/is a Green Beret.  Guys like that don't move dirt just so a bunch of sissy pants give it a 8.6 instead of a 7.2.  What genuinely pisses me off about this site is how for years we talk about playing a course along the ground and just as soon as an architect builds that course over amazing geological formations we want to call in the dozers.  Given all the courses we get to play in all parts of the country we should cherish the opportunity to play golf on the exact same ground left for us by nature and not over what some gardener thinks will titillate our sensory perceptions.

We will never know if this is a top five course built on a piece property under these conditions because four more will never be built.

[Jim Colton]

Bob Lang was/is a Green Beret.  Guys like that don't move dirt just so a bunch of sissy pants give it a 8.6 instead of a 7.2.  What genuinely pisses me off about this site is how for years we talk about playing a course along the ground and just as soon as an architect builds that course over amazing geological formations we want to call in the dozers.  Given all the courses we get to play in all parts of the country we should cherish the opportunity to play golf on the exact same ground left for us by nature and not over what some gardener thinks will titillate our sensory perceptions.

We will never know if this is a top five course built on a piece property under these conditions because four more will never be built.

But he'll gladly move dirt for the USGA

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

I hope you are not comparing the USGA with a bunch of raters.  Hosting USGA events is very good for the local community and some small sacrifice may be required to complete his primary directive.  Dirt was of course moved for the greens and tees and this and that...a little here or there will not change anything.

I don't believe the esker will end up being touched.  A little bird called faith whispered in my ear this morning.

[RJ_Daley]

Just a point of comment on the rough... The only time I played it with Mike H., they had recently widened the intermediate cut of rough about 10-12ft mostly on both sides.  It would have been a total disaster with even narrower FWs and more rough in terms of lost balls going over hillocks blind into roughs.  I haven't seen the place since last summer.  But, I do believe that wider FWs and more so, wider intermediate rough, well conditioned and about 1.5" or < is very much needed.  While that would probably raise maintenance cost even more to get the texture of wider intermediate to good playing conditions.

The card says the regular playing tees are 6500.  I think they ought to get a set up down to 6200-6500 and restrict anyone of worse than 6-8  handi from any other back tees at 7200-7800.  I can't imagine having a fun day on that course playing over your head in handi:yardage ratio... unless you are a masicist.

Jeff Mingay says alot, while not saying much...   

[John Kavanaugh]

Dick,

The only hole either you or Hendren could hit through a fairway would be #9.  Did you get your feelings hurt because of the reverse cantor dogleg?

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