[Ran Morrissett]

Since GolfClubAtlas.com went live in June, 1999, events has gone unbelievably well.  

Passionate people like Tommy N. immediately found this site and within a couple of months, Tom Paul and Paul Turner were making thoughtful posts. Several hundred more posters with well reasoned views have come on board as the months have turned to years. People like Daniel Wexler, Geoff Shackelford, Jeff Silverman and Brad Klein who get paid for their articles everywhere else contributed in-depth Feature Interviews and articles to this site for free. Tom MacWood spent several hundred hours researching and writing several treatise that are posted here. Busy professionals like Tom Doak, Jeff Brauer, Mike Clayton and Kelly Blake Moran frequently post.  A number of very fine people like Pat Mucci and Ed Baker who have made a difference at their home clubs found the site a year after we were up and running. A small but knowledgeable group of Aussies and Canucks post regularly and one net result of all this is that many friendships have been formed around the world.

And then up pops Mark Rowlinson from near Manchester, England a month ago with his very well written In My Opinion piece on golf in Cheshire. As the man in charge of compiling The Times Guide to Golf in Great Britain and Ireland, Mark brings a most welcome perspective to this site. And once again, this month's feature interviewee has spent a ton of time and thought in responding, this time to questions about golf in GB&I. And what a great time to talk about golf there after seeing what thrilling seaside golf is all about at Royal St. George's.

This site truly has had a lucky star over it from day one and Mark continues that by adding an interview that is both entertaining and meaningful. Hope everyone enjoys this month's Interview and Mark will respond to posts as time permits.

Cheers,

[GeoffreyC]

Ran and Mark

Thank you for an interesting "examination"  

I've played Alwoodley, Moortown, Lindrick, Woodhall Spa, Ganton and Seaton Carew among those discussed in the interview.

I found Moortown to be as described with more of a parkland feel then the others but I also felt a deliberate trend towards green irrigated turf. Does the club which is fairly exclusive for and English golf club regularly play softer and greener?

Alwoodley is delightfully quirky, fun and playable. In hindsight it really exhibits and showcases all the virtues that the good Dr. goes on to use in a more sophisticated way in his future designs. Interestingly, there are more blind shots here then he uses later in his career.

Lindrick was fun and ends with an excellent par 3.  This course to me is a posterchild of how golf has changed over the years.  Its about 6400 yards as I recall but it held the Ryder Cup! There are some great old photos of the event in the clubhouse.  Its certainly obsolete for tournament play given today's equipment.

Seaton Carew is a rather mundane links although they rotate in some alternative holes over what looks like more interesting land.  I'd be curious if Mark could comment on this aspect of the course and what those other holes over the dunes play like.  The MacKenzie hole is #17 I believe and it was the nicest among the 18 I played.

Woodhall Spa and Ganton are "must sees" as they both are world class.  I'm looking forward to the upcoming Walker Cup matches at Ganton. Thanks for reminding me of my attempt at driving the short 14th and winding up tight against the railroad ties in the cross bunker.

[Paul_Turner]

Great stuff.  Mark is the modern day RHK Browning, who documented so much with his British club handbooks of the 30's and 40's: my hero.  

Your superb "The Times" golf guide appears to be based around the old, great AA guide from the 70s, but with a fully  revised text and new Top 50.  I loved that AA guide, it was such a comprehensive UK guide and was generally accurate with its green text recommendations.  Really pleased you went to the effort of including the designers name in the new guide.  Got to get to Prestbury ASAP, it's way up on my list of HSC courses to see.

But Mark I have to ask, why did the great Ganton GC disappear in The World Atlas, to be replaced by the rubbish Belfry?  I understand editors and the Ryder Cup... but surely quality of golf course should out, and the Belfry really is just a potato field with trees and couple of ponds

[Mark_Rowlinson]

You'll have to acquire the 2002 Edition of the Atlas, in which Ganton is restored to its rightful place.  It was not expunged by me - it dropped out before I started to do updates for Hamlyn.  The Belfry found its way in at this time, too.  It stays there because it is unique in having staged four Ryder Cups and the plain fact is that, whatever you think of the architecture, it has provided four of the most exciting contests imaginable.  

Mark Rowlinson.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

In response to Geoffrey Childs,  I know what he means about Seaton Carew - it is very flat and the surrounding industrial scenery is far from inspiring but there are some excellent holes.  The new Penninck holes (there are now 22) get a little closer to the sea, penetrating the dunes more fully and 'Chapel Open' (the 11th on the Brabazon Course) is a corker of a 'Cape' hole, a short par 5 of real intrigue.  

Lindrick is a very different kettle of fish.  It did witness a (then) very rare home victory in the Ryder Cup (1957) and it has occasionally seen European professional events since then.  On one occasion Greg Norman, then at the height of his youthful powers, managed to run up a 14 at the 17th!  Because the course is split by a busy main road a new hole (the 12th) has had to be built for safety reasons, so the course and the numbering of the holes have been slightly altered.  It now plays to just over 6,600 yards from the championship tees, 6486 from the whites and 6270 from the yellows.  There are some very fine holes, not least the 13th, plunging past bunkers on the left before climbing over further bunkers to a hilltop green.  It's still a very formal place - jackets and ties were still compulsory in all parts of the clubhouse at all times of day when last I visited it (2000) - yet there's an informality about the course, with locals walking their dogs all over the course.  On reflection, I could have added Lindrick to that list of courses you  need to play several times in order to appreciate it fully.  It plays well in winter, too.

Mark Rowlinson.

[edmorrissett]

I enjoyed the interview.  It brought back one of the best lines I ever heard in the British Isles.  Ran and I were playing Southerdown Golf Club (which the interview mentions) on a barren plain high above the water near Cardiff in Wales.  It was about 50 degrees and the wind was blowing about 25 mph.  A great experience.  The pro was really looking forward to a trip to Florida.  I said why --- thinking of the relatively inexpensive, compact, walkable links courses (and non-links for that matter) with rapid play and non-manicured conditions in the British Isles versus the manicured, very expensive, forced riding, slow play courses in Florida and he said, "Ah, the weather! the weather!"

I have often thought of that because I really like virtually everything about golf in the British Isles.  But I have reluctantly concluded that he may have a point and maybe it is better to visit rather than to live there.

In the interview he mentions Royal Birkdale and the three generations of the Hawtree Family.  I highly recommend the Mount Mitchell Golf Club near Burnsville in western North Carolina done by Fred Hawtree, the second generation, and opened in 1973.  To use Tom Doak's phrase, it is truly a "hidden gem" in an idyllic valley setting.

[Norbert P]

 Truly a treat to read that interview.  Ran, where you have illuminated the world with your site, Mr. Rowlinson brings in the infra-red and ultra-violet golf courses that we don't get to see.  This, I suspect will be a very valuable tool, along with your 'In My Opinion' piece, for any traveller or, for that matter, any dreamer of faraway places.
 
  Mr. Rowlinson, you place Silloth-on-Solway as your "all-time favourite links course."  Could you please elaborate on why.

 Ran, your continued fine choices and penchant for interviewing interesting people is astounding.  Are you Bruce Wayne?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The World Golf Atlas remains one of my favorite books on the subject of Golf Architecture. It was probably the artwork that inspired me the most. Could you tell us about the artist and the artwork. While not really depicting the actual terrain of many of the sites, it doesn't need to! That's what makes it so perfect!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I have to say that I don't know who did the original artwork for the World Atlas.  I'll try to find out, but it was an awfully long time ago.  When I first met the people at Mitchell Beazley I was told that one of the former directors was a golf nut who persuaded the publisher to send him up in an aeroplane to get the photographs from which the originals were drawn.  That may or may not be true, but I used to think that the illustrations gave something of the feel and texture of the course, the land and even the scent of the soap in the shower cubicles!  I'm reminded of J.F. Abercromby who, apparently, went up in a balloon to survey the site for the golf course at Coombe Hill, highly rated by R.T. Jones and Bing Crosby.

As to Silloth, I love it because of its character.  It starts and finishes in the shadow of a flour mill - it's simply part of the town in the best Scottish tradition.  From the first tee the view is of a line of dunes around which you will have to play your second shot to a seemingly secretive green.  Each hole is utterly unlike any other.  There are holes of just about every length - par 3s from 134 to 204 yards, par 4s from 318 to 444 yards and par 5s from 494 to 518 yards.  Immediately I sense the sneer of the big hitters for whom - normally - these are par 5s of inconsiderable length.  This is where topography comes in - just try finding the exposed, domed, hilltop green of the 13th (a 450-yard par 5 from the visitors' tees and 511 yards from the very back) with a pitching wedge and you'll appreciate the unliklihood of getting on in two from 200 yards out, and the awful consequences of failure.  It is the first of back-to-back par 5s of similar length.  If one green is in reach of two shots the wind will ensure that the next almost certainly not.  Each hole runs in its own valley amongst the dunes, finds its way through the gorse or bounces around on untamed linksland in its own inimitable fashion.  But, to use the old cliche, the whole adds up to far more than the sum of the parts.  Sadly, I have no photos to share with you.  Perhaps someone reading this has.  To sum up, I suppose it is to Royal Birkdale and Royal St George's what Swinley Forest and St George's Hill are to Sunningdale and Wentworth.

[GeoffreyC]

Mark

Siloth on Solway was perhaps my greatest surprise on a trip to England and Western Scotland back in 1998. However, the great folks in Cumbria would probably not take kindly to being called Scottish.  It is an interesting English town filled with the most interesting and friendly people I have come across. Their kindness and willingness to interact were a highlight of my trip.

You describe the links and its allure very well and I would recommend a visit (and have here previously) for anyone driving from the fine English courses you talk about (Ganton, Woodhall Spa, Alwoodly etc.) up to Western Scotland. The linksland is superior and the combination of straightforward and qiirky holes results in a course that is a joy to play over and over. I believe it is for these reasons that Ran put it on his Next 50 to play.

I have quite a few photos but it was during my pre-digital phase and I need to scan them before posting.  I will do so if there is a request.

[Paul_Turner]

I played Silloth about 20 years ago as a boy, with "nearby" Southerness; which is close as the crow flies, but much further by road-Silloth is the better course.  I don't remember the details very well, but I do remember the dunes, gorse and flour mill.  It's definitely worth the detour from the M6 on the route north from England to Scotland- ideally, combine it with a day or two walking in the Lake District.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Geoffrey,

Many thanks for your response.  I'm sorry if I gave the impression that Silloth is in Scotland.  I am very well aware that it is not, but in the manner in which it starts and finishes in town, as it were, it is like many Scottish courses such as The Old Course, Moray, Elie, Dornoch and so on.  For that matter Seascale, another fascinating links on the Cumbrian coast also starts and finishes along the backs of housing, while at Yorkshire's oldest course and only genuine links, Cleveland, it is quite possible to pull your opening drive into someone's greenhouse!

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings and I'd love to see the photos.

Mark.

[Ran Morrissett]

I have just added pics of the 420 yard 5th, the 265 yard 9th and the 145 yard 10th holes at Beau Desert to the end of the Feature Interview.

As Mark picks this as the course he would likely select if forced to play but one course, this little known, 6300 yard Fowler course is bound to be full of character. Certainly, these few photographs of Mark's show that the property holds plenty of interest.

In Finegan's book All Courses Great and Small, he says the "green complexes are fascinating" and that the 18th green at over 14,000 square feet is probably the largest putting surface in England.

Still, Finegan seems to suggest that the greens may have been toned down in the past 30 years, in part because of a report from Fred Hawtree to the board in 1974 that claims "There are a great many eccentric contours which lead to...approaches and putts that go beyond a spirit of adventure."

Mark, do such changes ring any bells with you   or is the course still full of 'eccentric contours'   ?

Cheers,

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Why is it I draw great parallels to Hawtree and Cornish and (With all due respects since his recent passing) Graves?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I honestly don't know by how much the greens at Beau Desert may have been toned down.  There is still at least one idiosyncratic green, the 5th, which is on three levels, front to back, highest in the middle!  I seem to recall that the approach to the 17th was simplified - possibly the slopes on the approach rather than the putting surface?  I'll enquire - one of the members with whom I've played is the club's honorary historian.

On another tack, somewhere in recent correspondence on your site I was asked about other holes inspired by Moortown's 'Gibraltar' which I stated had been much copied.  My apologies to whoever asked that question for not answering more personally - I can't find his post!  Mackenzie described the hole in some detail in 'Golf Architecture' and when it was built it attracted many spectators, largely because it was the first artificially constructed hole (or, at least, one of the earliest such holes).  The slopes tend to throw the imperfectly struck ball into bunkers front left or back right and Mackenzie described the front bunkers as having, 'very much the same effect as a cross bunker without the hardship to the long handicap player.'  The hole most obviously inspired by 'Gibraltar'  is the 11th at Alwoodley, which appears as a proposed new hole on Mackenzie's map of about 1910, described, 'Suggested new 11th hole of a similar type to 17th at Moortown.'  ('Gibraltar' was at first No 17, later No 8, and is now, I think, No 10 at Moortown).  I am told that the 4th on the East Course at Royal Melbourne (formerly 16th on Composite Course, currently 8th) was also inspired by it, calling for the same variety of shots, ranging from a running shot drawn round behind the bunkers front left to a high fade landing softly.  Was this a Mackenzie hole or a Russell one, I wonder?  The 12th at The Jockey Club in Argentina is another candidate but, as with Royal Melbourne, I have no first-hand knowledge.  As first built, the 12th on the High Course at Moor Park was pretty well a mirror image of 'Gibraltar', giving the left-handed player the same options.  At some point in the 60s or 70s the bunkering was simplified and the green now presents a more open target.  

Do your correspondents know of other examples?

[Scott_Burroughs]

FYI, here is the aerial of Beau Desert, which was AOTD #187 (thread here:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2969   )



and Links magazine article included in link above:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=161439

[GeoffreyC]

Mark

Here are some scanned images from my trip in 1998.

Siloth







Seascale- playing to the Nuclear Power plant surrounded by sharp barbed wire and back is interesting. The first hole plays up the hill on the right of the first photo. We played in sideways rain in a local best ball points tournament.





The 18th at Lindrick- an excellent par 3 finisher



Gibraltar at Moortown- angle of the tee shot is from the lower left of the photo.



For Tommy Naccarato



Ganton and its wonderful bunkering

The drivable 14th and what happens if you don't carry the bunker! The green is off to the right corner of the photo an dluckily this lefty got to pitch back to the fairway and not as a righty would do off to the heather on the left!

The fairway bunker on #18 at Ganton.  Petite it is not!


Bunkers on #5 I believe at Alwoodley

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Great to get the aerieal of Beau Desert and the photos of Silloth, Seascale and Ganton.  Someone will have to tell me how to import JPEGs into these post replies and then I can share a few apposite photos with the intelligencia who populate this website!

[Paul_Turner]

Geoffrey

Nice photos.  I hope the golf course outlasts Sellafield's Nuclear power station!

Ran

I read that quote from Hawtree in the review of the course in Links.  The author then implied that the members hadn't acted on his advice and stuck with Fowler's greens.  The contours and tilts are pretty fierce still, the best being the 5th which has a false front, a central plateau and then down to a third level at the back.  The greens look to have been built up in the same way, with nearly every green having a trench around its back half; I've never seen this before.  (You can see the greenside mound for the 5th, which was discussed to death on GCA about 2 years ago!)

[Mark Bourgeois]

I highly recommend the Mount Mitchell Golf Club near Burnsville in western North Carolina done by Fred Hawtree, the second generation, and opened in 1973.  To use Tom Doak's phrase, it is truly a "hidden gem" in an idyllic valley setting.

If you're out there, Mr. Morrissett, thank you -- this course was a blast!

Mark

[KBanks]

Mark,

How did you like the tenth green? Transposed to the UK, undoubtedly it would be referred to as a "MacKenzie" type green!

I'm in full agreement with you and Mr. Morrissett about Mt Mitchell.

Ken

[Bart Bradley]

Mark,

How did you like the tenth green? Transposed to the UK, undoubtedly it would be referred to as a "MacKenzie" type green!

I'm in full agreement with you and Mr. Morrissett about Mt Mitchell.

Ken

Ken:

I, too, thought Mount Mitchell was a lot a fun.  When I was last there, carts were mandatory and it was cart path only full time.  Is that still true?  It detracted from an otherwise fun round.

Bart

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ken

How do you like this hole location?


We were on that green a while!

Bart, walked 36 two Saturdays ago.

Mark

[KBanks]

Mark, I'm sure that location made for interesting play on ten. There are no easy pins on that green.

Mt Mitchell is such an enjoyable course. If memory serves, it is Fred Hawtree's only design in the US. Glad to hear you can still walk there.

Ken

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