[Bob_Huntley]

Between watching the Olympics and the PGA Championship I re-read Mark Frost's  'The Match."

I must say that it was a jolly good read but I closed the covers thinking that he is one sloppy writer.

Some the the irritants to me were his description of Hogan looking like a middleweight at 145lbs...when 160lbs was the limit for that particular class. He claims that Hogan holds the course record at Cypress, with a 63. If he thinks that conceded putts in a match play event constitutes a record, then his golfing knowledge is sadly lacking.

On page 31 he writes "that Coleman never owned his own mansion in Monterey but rented a New England Style cottage in the hills above Pebble Beach." I wrote to George Coleman's daughter in Venice and her letter below disputes that and also that Hogan did not stay with Crosby.

"Hello Bob,
 
No, we owned a house on the corner next to the Lodge. It is the  Cottage
which is for sale now. Mother and Daddy rented before the war, but after  the war
they bought the house and never rented again They always rented the old  Morse
house which isn't there any more. Not everything in the book is right.  Hogan
never stayed with Crosby. I can't say the house they  bought was  a mansion.
They kept building on.
 
All the best to you and your wife,
 
Sarah"

Back in 1970/71 I was invited to play in a fourball match at Cypress by Jack Westland. He would partner Art Bell and I would play with Harvie Ward. Harvie teased Bell by never conceding him a putt and causing him untold anguish as by that time Bell was an awful putter. We won the match and had a drink afterward and Ward  mentioned the match with no great appreciation that it had changed the game forever. He was still using the same rusty old putter and said " I may change wives but never this."

He was as good as I have seen.

Bob

[Sean Leary]

Great story Bob.

Is Jack Westland the JW from Everett WA who won a US Am many years ago....

[TEPaul]

Bob:

There is no question at all that golf's history can show that amateur championship golf for eons was the dominant area of interest in championship golf. Obviously there came a time at some point where that dominance began to be questioned and there probably is an event or a series of them where the world of golf began to understand that professional golf was the dominant sector of championship golf.

Was that time really that "match" or was it just easiest to identify and dramatize for some history writer like Frost?

Who knows. Does it really matter?

For me the most interesting thing to learn from "The Match" was the life and times of Harvie Ward and how various machinations effected it. Of course to consider how good he was is extremely historically fascinating. What-all Eddie Lowery did was also pretty shocking considering he was actually on the board of the USGA.

In the end, perhaps the most important thing to consider about that match that day is how all of them played.

[Bob_Huntley]

Sean,

Yes, Jack Westland was the oldest winner of the US Amateur and was a congressman from Washington. A delightful man.

Tom Paul,

Eddie Lowery was a different man altogether. A tough business man who absolutely loved both Ken Venturi and Harvie Ward, unfortunately Harvie played the price of being to close to the flame.

The treatment of  Harvie Ward by the USGA was a disgrace. There were any number of amateurs at the time receiving the same help that Lowery gave to both Venturi and Ward but it would seem the Western players got the shaft but the Eastern establishment players were exempt from scrutiny.

I must say that Lowery could be a perfect chit at times but he cared for his "boys."

Bob

[Mike Hendren]

Bob,

To heck with Frost.  I want to know when YOUR book is coming out!

Hope you are well.

Mike

[Richard Hetzel]

I read it on vacation this summer. I liked how Frost brought Harvie Ward to life, made Byron out as the next Bobby Jones who left the game while at the top and the background storyline on the guy would just didn't know the meaning of the word quit, Ben Hogan.

[Bruce Leland]

Bob,

To heck with Frost.  I want to know when YOUR book is coming out!
 

Bob, I'll second that!  Thanks for your insight into the lives of legends. 

[Jim Sweeney]

Bob- I agree with you. There are similar lapses of research and/or care in his other golf themed books- The Grand Slam and The Greatest Game Ever Played. For example, in TGGEP he notes that Danny Yates won the US Amateur. Danny won the US Mid-Amateur but never the Amateur. There are others.

Beyond that I found all three books entertaining and insightful, though I did wonder what other incorrect information I might have taken at face value because I did notknow better.

[TEPaul]

"The treatment of  Harvie Ward by the USGA was a disgrace."

Bob:

Oh really? Why is that? It sounds to me the treatment by Eddie Lowery of Harvie Ward completely violating his amateur status is the real disgrace (and  then having the balls and the complete lack of brains to actually write it off on the IRS). The fault of the USGA seems to be ever putting a man like Eddie Lowery on the Board of the USGA for starters.

[Bill_McBride]

Sean,

Yes, Jack Westland was the oldest winner of the US Amateur and was a congressman from Washington. A delightful man.

Tom Paul,

Eddie Lowery was a different man altogether. A tough business man who absolutely loved both Ken Venturi and Harvie Ward, unfortunately Harvie played the price of being to close to the flame.

The treatment of  Harvie Ward by the USGA was a disgrace. There were any number of amateurs at the time receiving the same help that Lowery gave to both Venturi and Ward but it would seem the Western players got the shaft but the Eastern establishment players were exempt from scrutiny.

I must say that Lowery could be a perfect chit at times but he cared for his "boys."

Bob

I love the linkage between Eddie Lowery and the early days of American golf when he was Francis Ouimet's caddy at Brookline in the 1913 US Open.  I was amazed to learn later in life, growing up in San Francisco, that Lowery had eventually moved to SF and become a very successful automobile dealer.  The match was 40+ years later!

Another interesting parallel is the shameful treatment of Ouimet by the USGA, who ruled him a professional because he worked in a sporting goods store that sold golf equipment among lots of other stuff.

As usual there is probably "the rest of the story."

[TEPaul]

BobH:

You have just got to record all your memories and recollections of the cool times and interesting people you have known through golf. They will be a truly wonderful treasure trove I know.

Will you do it?

Also, not coming from this country in the beginning you really do bring the most interesting perspective on things to do with golf in America.

As I think I said earlier "The Match" was wonderful for me because I learned so much about Harvie Ward I never knew. He was a guy Dad ran into from time to time in golf tournaments including coming up against him a few times. I'm not sure why, maybe because dad knew them both and I never knew that much about either of them but I've always sort of confused Harvie Ward and Charlie Coe.

I also found out so much about George Coleman I never knew. I knew him for years around Seminole (where he eventually became its president). He was a very nice man but I never had any idea about the rest of his life. To me he was just Mr. Coleman. And then after he was gone I played in the first 4-5 "Colemans" at Seminole. I wish I knew then what "The Match" explained about him because it would've made those "Colemans" even more meaningful. I sure do know that Barry Van Gerbig who is something like a third cousin of mine and I believe followed Mr. Coleman as the president of Seminole sure did love the guy. I think Mr. Coleman was a pretty solid mentor to Barry Van Gerbig.

[JSlonis]

Bob,

Thanks for your insights into Harvie.  I had the good fortune to get to know him during my college years at Campbell Univ. in NC.  During that time I started taking lessons from him at Pine Needles.  One of the greatest golf days I ever had was spent with Harvie at the Wednesday practice round of the Masters. He was working with Payne Stewart at the time and invited me down for the day.  It was truly a privilege to get to know one of the great characters ever in the game of golf.  His personality was truly one of a kind, and as you know he was also one helluva player.  While I'm too young to have ever watched Ben Hogan up close, Harvie was as good a ballstriker as I've ever seen, even when he was well into to his 60's. 

As I get older, the more I realize how lucky I was to have known him, even for a short while.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

You are quite right, Eddie Lowery was of no help to Harvie Ward and as USGA Committee man should have known better. However, both you and I know of more than a few amateurs that had similar help as sellers of insurance.

Jamie,

My one and only contact with Harvie Ward was the game at Cypress in the early seventies. I found him the most charming accomplished golfer I had ever met. For any number of years after Eddie Lowery died in the mid-eighties his widow, Mary Margaret Lowery, was a client and friend until her death a few short years ago. She was like a den mother to both Venturi and Ward. I asked her what she thought of their abilities, she replied that Ken Venturi was the consumate professional and a world beater but that Ward was the natural genius and impervious to pressure...

Bob

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

Could you tell us a little more about Harvie Ward----what he was like, what he talked about, his swing etc?

[Josh Smith]

Bob,

         Wow.  You must have played at a very high level, that is a neat story.  I work at California Golf Club as an assistant greenskeeper and actually live above the pro shop here.  As Art Bell was our long time pro, I would love to hear any stories or info you have about him.  As I have heard or read he played in 3 masters Tournaments and was a great teacher and swing mimic.  Most of that according to Grant Spaeth. 

         Eddie Lowery was also a longtime member and past club president at Cal Club.  Naturally I would love to hear any stories or tidbits you have about the club and either of these two guys.  Thanks in advance.

Josh Smith

[Jerry Kluger]

I just finished reading it - I hope it really was as it was described. (It is one of the few books I've read with typos.)

[Dan King]

Please everyone, stop learning things from this book or this author. There is no way of knowing if what you are learning is information about the subject or the just sprouting from the imagination of the author. If it leads you to do more research, wonderful. But I see too many posters saying they learned something from one of Frost's books.

Cheers,
Dan King

There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after.
 --J.R.R. Tolkien

[Bob_Huntley]

Josh,

I had a long term relationship with Art Bell some years ago. We played in the 40 Thieves group at Quail for a few years and I always remember him exhorting his amateur partners to take enough club to the green. On one occasion we needed my stroke at the eighteenth hole to win the money. The pin was at the back of the hole and he said to me, "Bob, hit he f***ing thing over the green." He was always of the opinion that amateurs were absolute disasters when it came to hitting the right club at the right time. Another time I was hoping to qualify for the British Amateur  and flew from Santa Monica to Pebble for a days session with the great master. I hit a dozen seven irons and thought they were absolutely perfect. I was surprised that he didn't complement me on the effort. Eventually he said, "Bob, you are not in a long driving competition, a seven iron is for control and precision, remember that."  He was never kind and fuzzy.


I have a bunch on Eddie Lowery but I'll relate them to you in person when we meet.

Bob

[Josh Smith]

Bob,

         Nice story, did your stroke end up winning the match?  The seven iron comment is priceless.

Josh

[Bill_McBride]

Please everyone, stop learning things from this book or this author. There is no way of knowing if what you are learning is information about the subject or the just sprouting from the imagination of the author. If it leads you to do more research, wonderful. But I see too many posters saying they learned something from one of Frost's books.

Cheers,
Dan King

There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after.
 --J.R.R. Tolkien

Dan, I like Frost's books.  The secret is just treating them as historical fiction, sort of like reading about Henry VIII or some other historical figure.  Does anybody really know what Henry VIII had for breakfast?

[Bob_Huntley]

Biil,

You wrote:

"Dan, I like Frost's books.  The secret is just treating them as historical fiction, sort of like reading about Henry VIII or some other historical figure.  Does anybody really know what Henry VIII had for breakfast?

Bill,

It would have been nice had Frost prefaced his novel with the term, "Historical Fiction."


Bob



 

[Dave_Miller]

Between watching the Olympics and the PGA Championship I re-read Mark Frost's  'The Match."

I must say that it was a jolly good read but I closed the covers thinking that he is one sloppy writer.

Some the the irritants to me were his description of Hogan looking like a middleweight at 145lbs...when 160lbs was the limit for that particular class. He claims that Hogan holds the course record at Cypress, with a 63. If he thinks that conceded putts in a match play event constitutes a record, then his golfing knowledge is sadly lacking.

On page 31 he writes "that Coleman never owned his own mansion in Monterey but rented a New England Style cottage in the hills above Pebble Beach." I wrote to George Coleman's daughter in Venice and her letter below disputes that and also that Hogan did not stay with Crosby.

"Hello Bob,
 
No, we owned a house on the corner next to the Lodge. It is the  Cottage
which is for sale now. Mother and Daddy rented before the war, but after  the war
they bought the house and never rented again They always rented the old  Morse
house which isn't there any more. Not everything in the book is right.  Hogan
never stayed with Crosby. I can't say the house they  bought was  a mansion.
They kept building on.
 
All the best to you and your wife,
 
Sarah"

Back in 1970/71 I was invited to play in a fourball match at Cypress by Jack Westland. He would partner Art Bell and I would play with Harvie Ward. Harvie teased Bell by never conceding him a putt and causing him untold anguish as by that time Bell was an awful putter. We won the match and had a drink afterward and Ward  mentioned the match with no great appreciation that it had changed the game forever. He was still using the same rusty old putter and said " I may change wives but never this."

He was as good as I have seen.

Bob

Bob:
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story .  Frost's books are entertaining but some times the facts get in his way
Best
Dave

[Rick Shefchik]

I just finished reading it - I hope it really was as it was described. (It is one of the few books I've read with typos.)

Jerry,

A quick, OT word about typos.

They certainly could be the fault of the author, but not necessarily. Just today I was looking at a letter from a friend who'd read "Amen Corner" and pointed out a typo on P. 228, a reference to "Rroom 245" in an Augusta motel. Because I knew there were other similar mistakes in the book, it didn't surprise me, but I was puzzled nevertheless that something like that got past me, Dan Kelly (who copy-edited "Amen Corner" with his sharp eye) and my publisher. So I looked at a copy of the uncorrected proof of the book that I edited with Dan and sent back to the publisher, and what did I find on P. 228?

"Room 245."

The typo must have been introduced during the typesetting process after I sent my corrections back to the publisher, as I suspect were most, if not all, of the others.

Not much the author can do about that.

[Dan King]

Dave_Miller writes:
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story Wink Grin.  Frost's books are entertaining but some times the facts get in his way Grin Grin Grin

That's all fine and dandy, if you treat the book like historical fiction. But people in this thread have said they learned something they didn't know from Frost's most recent story.

When I first started reading his earlier book about the 1913 U.S. Open I was amazed by all the new information he must have uncovered somewhere. I am fairly well read about that event, so I was surprised. Unfortunately he had no footnotes, so it wasn't clear where he got his info. I sent him email about a few things asking where he got this info. His one-line reply was they would be fixed in future editions.

When I read history I want to learn things. I don't want to be constantly wondering what is fact and what is fiction. I understand there is a fine line between facts and the author's interpretation of facts, but that is considerably different than making up facts to fit a story. Just remember, Frost isn't doing research or discovering new facts. He is making them up to fit his story. So any new info you read in one of his books is more likely to come from his imagination as from any new research.

If you want to learn about managing a farm, hopefully you are not only going to rely solely on George Orwell's Animal Farm.

Cheers,
Dan King

For truth is always strange; stranger than fiction.
 --Lord Byron

[Mike Demetriou]

Dan, I thought the book was as entertaining as golf books get, but I'm not saddened to learn that it is so historically inaccurate.  Are you saying that the history from the book must be scrapped because it is completely false, or that there are too many mistakes for you to feel comfortable?

Whether the depiction in the book is entirely true or not, for those in my generation, Ken Venturi was a commentator on CBS, who used to play some golf. After reading Frost's book, I have an entirely new appreciation for Mr. Venturi and what he accomplished in life, and on tour. I'm absolutely stunned by how much I didn't know about him, and yet I used to think that I was relatively well read for my golfing generation. I still have miles to go before I sleep on this front, but consider that many of my peers read only the major golf magazine titles, and no historical or biographical materials whatsoever. 

I guess I'm saying that I hope that there is something true we can take from Frost's work, becuase it really turned me on to the subject this summer, and has motivated me to read a lot more about Hogan, Venturi, CPC, etc.  But it begs the question, what else is fantasy as you would imply? Should I fear that James Dodson's biography of Hogan is a fantasy as well?

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