Long Putters

[Kirk Gill]

J - this has to be a first, a thread started on a comment I made, even if I wasn't the first on that other thread to make it !

One comment that I was going to make on that other thread that I'll make here instead is - There are an infinite number of things that aren't banned by the rules of golf, like wearing feather boas when you play. Just because range finders or long putters aren't specifically banned doesn't mean that I like them, or would use them. And OF COURSE the pros might use them - their job is to win golf tournaments, and that's a world I don't live in, and I'm not subject to the competitive pressures that fill their days. Like most people, I get to make a choice about the way I play golf, and I can't say I spend too awful much time analyzing it. I personally don't want to use a rangefinder, but the 150 markers don't bother me. Go figure. And the reality is that even if one of those long putters helped me to putt better, I wouldn't use one, because I think they're ridiculous, and because I believe that when you anchor the end of the club against your body, the resulting stroke is not a golf stroke. The rules of golf don't say that, I do. But I'm adding extra rules for only one person - myself. And if I don't like what someone else is doing, I might roll my eyes a bit, and you'll have to forgive me for that.  But if someone gets more fun out of their game of golf using one of those crazy long putter thangs.........God bless 'em.

[Chris Kane]

I don't like them and think they should be banned.  For once Pat is right, they're contrary to the spirit of the game.

However, I don't think the necessary "ruin" the game.  There are no great putters on tour using the long putter.  If they were so effective, more players would be using them, instead they're an absolute last resort.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat; Correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall Snead anchoring the putter to his body while executing the sidesaddle.  Split grip with top hand on the butt of the club but not anchored to the best of my recollection.  Clearly no anchor with the croquet.

SL,

Snead's early style had him straddling the line of the putt with his left hand high and his right hand low.

When the USGA banned that method he moved the ball outside of his feet and held his feet together.

He later may have attached his upper hand/putter to his body, which is what evolved as putters got longer, either due to the strain regular putters put on one's back, or, the ability to better see the line from a more upright position.

But, it seems that Snead was largely responsible for the shift in putting style from traditional to croquet to sidesaddle to the straight forward style to the current style.

[Tom Huckaby]

I think putters should have a shorter limit on their length and should not be allowed to be anchored to the body.  Using a long-putter is the most unnatural stroke made in the game.  There is nothing golf-like in the act of swinging a long putter other than a ball comes off the face of it.

Jeff,

I agree.

Rumor had it that the putter would have to be the shortest club in the bag.

Other rumors had it that attaching any club to the body would be banned.

Churning butter is not meant for the golf course.

And, my putting is by far the worst part of my game.
People near and far have suggested that I go to the long putter.
Some have even sent me long putters.

But, I feel it's contrary to the spirit of the game, and thus, they remain in my garage and are only used for garden tools.

Pat - so you gave up on the idea you fought so vociferously for not all that long ago - and that is, that you wanted to carry TWO putters, one long, one short, as shivas did?

I guess wanting to follow the spirit of the game won out in the end, huh?  It can't possibly be because it just plain didn't work or is otherwise stupid, right?

 

[Dan King]

I guess 12 pages in a different thread isn't enough. You had to bring your claims to another thread?

JWinick writes:
Shivas is hypocritical for using one while criticizing other technological advances that do not undermine the spirit of the game.

• Put on ruby red golf shoes
• close your eyes
• Click your heels together three times while saying "Distance devices don't undermine the spirit of the game."
• Open your eyes

Has the world changed?

Cheers,
Dan King

Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong.
 --Terry Pratchett

[Mike Benham]

Other rumors had it that attaching any club to the body would be banned

Since we are taking a poll here, I don't think you have legislate the length of clubs as there are time proven reasons why a wedge is 35 3/4 inches long ...

I do agree that attaching or bracing a club against your body should not be legal ... if USGA/R&A made that rule, then putters would return to a normal length.

[Tom_Doak]

Long putters are an outright admission that the player can't putt.  I saw J.B. Holmes pull out his long putter on #17 at Oakland Hills yesterday and immediately delcared for either Paddy or Sergio to win. 

The long putters may make it possible for a bad putter to putt tolerably well, but only just.  If they were really an advantage everyone else would be using them.

The ruling in the Snead case was that putting astride the line of the putt should be illegal because it made it possible to use a true pendulum stroke taking the arms out of it altogether.  If any new putter made the same thing possible, I presume it would be banned as well.

[JWinick]

Dan:

I suppose if I'm irritating you to such an extent that you have to take cheap shots, then I must be on to something.   I felt it was appropriate to create another topic.  

My arguments are never rooted in a hostility to change, "American" golf, or technology.   If you put me on a long putter jury, I would lean against them, but I am convinceable.  

And, I would play with someone who used a long putter.  Would you play with someone who used an electronic device?   Who is the tolerant one?

I guess 12 pages in a different thread isn't enough. You had to bring your claims to another thread?

JWinick writes:
Shivas is hypocritical for using one while criticizing other technological advances that do not undermine the spirit of the game.

• Put on ruby red golf shoes
• close your eyes
• Click your heels together three times while saying "Distance devices don't undermine the spirit of the game."
• Open your eyes

Has the world changed?

Cheers,
Dan King

Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong.
 --Terry Pratchett

[JWinick]

Tom:

I would like to see an experiment to see if long putters create an unfair advantage.   Unfortunately, only professional putters seem to try the long putter.   That's not exactly a good sample.  The fact that these poor putters have not cured their putting ills shows that it may not be the advantage that one might think.

I think the USGA should study the issue and make a decision.  If research can prove that the long putter provides an unfair advantage, than they should be banned.

Long putters are an outright admission that the player can't putt.  I saw J.B. Holmes pull out his long putter on #17 at Oakland Hills yesterday and immediately delcared for either Paddy or Sergio to win. 

The long putters may make it possible for a bad putter to putt tolerably well, but only just.  If they were really an advantage everyone else would be using them.

The ruling in the Snead case was that putting astride the line of the putt should be illegal because it made it possible to use a true pendulum stroke taking the arms out of it altogether.  If any new putter made the same thing possible, I presume it would be banned as well.

[John Kavanaugh]

Will you guys join me in a boycott of Tropic Thunder?  A blog with an interesting take: http://www.patriciaebauer.com/2008/08/08/internet-trailer-simple-jack/

[Dean Stokes]

Long putters are an outright admission that the player can't putt.  I saw J.B. Holmes pull out his long putter on #17 at Oakland Hills yesterday and immediately delcared for either Paddy or Sergio to win. 

The long putters may make it possible for a bad putter to putt tolerably well, but only just.  If they were really an advantage everyone else would be using them.

The ruling in the Snead case was that putting astride the line of the putt should be illegal because it made it possible to use a true pendulum stroke taking the arms out of it altogether.  If any new putter made the same thing possible, I presume it would be banned as well.

TD, this is not about whether it is easier to putt with a long putter. Most people can putt great with a conventional putter. I have never even held a long putter and never will because I think they should not be allowed.

It is about helping players who cannot putt well with the short putter. That help comes in the form of anchoring the club into your body and letting the putter pendulum itself - taking the stroke out of this part of the game. That is why they should be banned.

What do you do if you have the yips with the driver? You struggle on, get worse, lose a lot of balls or quit! There is no outside agency or different way to swing a driver and there shouldn't be with putting.

Ask a few former Open champions and they will tell you.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim Franklin,

Orville Moody won the Senior U.S.Open with a long putter, if I'm not mistaken.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - so you gave up on the idea you fought so vociferously for not all that long ago - and that is, that you wanted to carry TWO putters, one long, one short, as shivas did?

I experimented with carrying two putters, but, NEVER was one of them a long putter.

You're confused, which doesn't surprise me.

Of my two putters,

One putter was for LONG putts.
The other putter was for SHORT putts.

I guess wanting to follow the spirit of the game won out in the end, huh? 


I never deviated from the spirit of the game.

You confused using a putter for LONG putts with a LONG putter.
I NEVER had a long putter in my bag.

It can't possibly be because it just plain didn't work or is otherwise stupid, right?

See my comments above.

You've confused using a putter for LONG putts with a LONG putter.

I NEVER used a LONG putter.

[Tom_Doak]

Dean:

I don't think any of the long putters I've seen are a true pendulum motion.  You still have to guide the putter -- just with one hand instead of two.

I have never been a fan of the long putter at all, but I don't see the point of banning it at this point, especially if it might make even more people quit golf.  It has not changed the balance of the playing field and I don't see any indication that it is about to change it.

[Dan King]

JWinick writes:
And, I would play with someone who used a long putter.  Would you play with someone who used an electronic device?   Who is the tolerant one?

Did I ever say I wouldn't play with someone because they used some sort of electronic device, or was that just a strawman created because it was easy to knock down?

Cheers,
Dan King

I wish I could give you a lot of advice, based on my experience of winning political debates. But I don't have that experience. My only experience is at losing them.
 --Richard M. Nixon

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat - so you gave up on the idea you fought so vociferously for not all that long ago - and that is, that you wanted to carry TWO putters, one long, one short, as shivas did?

I experimented with carrying two putters, but, NEVER was one of them a long putter.

You're confused, which doesn't surprise me.

Of my two putters,

One putter was for LONG putts.
The other putter was for SHORT putts.

I guess wanting to follow the spirit of the game won out in the end, huh? 


I never deviated from the spirit of the game.

You confused using a putter for LONG putts with a LONG putter.
I NEVER had a long putter in my bag.

It can't possibly be because it just plain didn't work or is otherwise stupid, right?

See my comments above.

You've confused using a putter for LONG putts with a LONG putter.

I NEVER used a LONG putter.

Patrick:  fair enough, my memory was faulty, I apologize.  Although one does wonder what putter was so much better for short putts as to require the length and vociferousness of that past argument... if not the long putter which our man shivas most definitely does use, and did argue is better for short putts... which one did it for you?  That is, what style was it?  Just curious.

Carrying two putters remains stupid, btw.  But at least you're good here.  

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Now THAT is what I was looking for.  You are upgraded from C+ to B-.

Why the relatively poor grade still?

Because your argument fails to address B&I improvements that are contradictory to the spirit of the game.  Reading this and only this, one would think you'd be OK with the Al Czervik putter, to take it to an extreme, so long as it was declared legal.

And you seem to approve the long putter ONLY BECAUSE IT'S CURRENTLY LEGAL, whereas you most definitely argue that the rules are wrong, or poorly applied, in the case of what you call the "cheater line."  Thus you argue for a rules change, or correction in application there, (even though there is a decision out there saying the cheater line is ok - there is, correct?).  You argue this for something you don't like.

But you fall on "it's ok by the rules" for the long putter - although many would argue - and have argued herein - that that too is against the spirit of the game, and thus requires a rules change.

I won't call you a hypocrite - you're not.  But I will say you are selective in application of your arguments.

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jon

Long Putters

If I am 4 ft tall and use a normal putter is that defined as using a Long Putter?

If I am 7 ft tall and use what is described as a Belly Putter can that be described as a normal putter for my height?

This debate has nothing to do with electronic aids.   

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

I disagree.  I think a putter swing is very similar to various type of chip shots around the green that can be played.  So there is an application there.  The arms follow a similar path, just not any hip twisting or wrist moving...well ideally I guess.

Kalen,

I have never held the butt end of my wedge to my chin or chest, with my left hand on the grip upside down, with my right hand below the grip or on the metal of the shaft in a claw position, and then proceed to swing the club perpendicular to the ground.  I don't know what short game school you went to or method you employ but it sounds very unique to me.   


Jeff F.

[C. Squier]

Jeff,

I disagree.  I think a putter swing is very similar to various type of chip shots around the green that can be played.  So there is an application there.  The arms follow a similar path, just not any hip twisting or wrist moving...well ideally I guess.

Kalen,

I have never held the butt end of my wedge to my chin or chest, with my left hand on the grip upside down, with my right hand below the grip or on the metal of the shaft in a claw position, and then proceed to swing the club perpendicular to the ground.  I don't know what short game school you went to or method you employ but it sounds very unique to me.   


Jeff F.

That's definitely Youtube worthy, IMO.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I've read all the preceding rules about placing no marks for putting and it's  clear the intent is not to allow placing marks on anything away from the ball. If the ruling bodies of golf (both of them, the one on the other side of the pond has no reason to cater to American icons) don't consider it a travesty of the spirit nor a violation of the rules of the game, then I don't think anyone's contrary opinion is of much import, except to themselves.

The line on the ball, the long putter, the sand wedge, etc., have the same history in the game, none are in violation of the rules or the spirit of the game.  

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

It certainly takes it the extreme, but then again, we've seen all kinds of crazy stances in golf up to and including the croquet.

I have a buddy who got so desperate he used to grip way down on the shaft and almost had his short putter jammed in his chest. Even Jack N used to have quite the crouch as he lined up his putts. 

I think when we start getting around to banning how people swing the club its a slippery slope and next thing you know Furyk's swing is banned because its one that only a mother could love!!  Perhaps a bit extreme but thats what GCA is about right?  Taking things to thier illogical conclusion? 

I do think Tom D has it right for what its worth.  Guys who have to use these are rarely tearing it up and they aren't gaining anything.  Being a good putter myself I know I never mind seeing someone use the broom, and if anything I feel pity....in a good way. 

Now if we can just invent something to help me with my horrible tee shots!!! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've read all the preceding rules about placing no marks for putting and it's  clear the intent is not to allow placing marks on anything away from the ball. If the ruling bodies of golf (both of them, the one on the other side of the pond has no reason to cater to American icons) don't consider it a travesty of the spirit nor a violation of the rules of the game, then I don't think anyone's contrary opinion is of much import, except to themselves.

The line on the ball, the long putter, the sand wedge, etc., have the same history in the game, none are in violation of the rules or the spirit of the game.  

Jim,

I'd disagree with you on this.

Just because a ruling body has decided one way, which they might reverse, doesn't mean that it's within the spirit of the game.

The USGA has acquiesced to lowering their standards in an effort to appeal to more people.

I believe that it was the high standards and inherent challenge of the game that led to its popularity, not the dumbing down of the game by appealing to the lowest common denominator.

I&B have negatively affected the game, the cost of the game and the field of play.

When I see driver heads the size of tennis rackets I know that someone in Far Hills has let the horse out of the barn or the camel into the tent, take your pick.

Just because it's legal to marry your second cousin in the State of ____ doesn't mean it's within the spirit of being righteous.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I have old Tommy Armour IMGT, IMG and other blade putters that I used for decades.  I still putt well with them from "distance"

While I used to make almost everything from 5 feet and in, there was a time when I was 50-50 from 18 inches.

So, I found a putter that seemed to work well from 5 feet and in, but, I didn't have the same feel for longer putts with it.

Enter my two putter system

Now, I'm putting better from 5 feet and in and I've adapted to longer putts with the same putter.

So, for now, I'm back to one putter.

But, I still carry a 2 and 3 iron and only one wood, my 3-wood.

I tend to be a traditionalist.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I wasn't trying to paint with a wide brush, only the few issues, i.e. long putter, marking the ball, sand wedge.

I don't believe the rules bodies are inviolable sanctuaries for the spirit of the game, but they haven't done it any harm by allowing the above.