[George Pazin]

(Note: This is an honest attempt to discuss Pete Dye's designs as they pertain to average golfers - please do not divert this thread into a discussion of my admittedly poor skills or biases.)

I was fortunate to play my second Pete Dye designed golf course last week, Pete Dye Golf Club; for those that missed it, Mystic Rock was the first. While I enjoyed both, especially PDGC, I can't help but think that the average golfer - the guy who plays a few times a month during the summer, you know, the guys that none of you guys know or play golf with - would really struggle with each, and I certainly know that the Ocean Course and TPC Sawgrass are well above my current abilities.

I know the standard response from many is "Play the right tees". Well, I personally don't believe that forcing me to play tees where I'm hitting 7 iron tee shots then wedges to the green is really the best way to solve the problem. I've read a bit from the Dyes (all of Bury Me In A Pot Bunker and parts of Alice Dye's book), and my impression is that Pete wants his courses to be an enjoyable challenge for all levels of golfers.

I do think that both of the courses I've played are much less overwhelming upon repeat plays. But I can't help but wonder if you need to be a certain level of golfer to really relish the type of challenge that Pete presents.

All right, give me your best shot, I can take it...

 

[Scott Macpherson]

I haven't read "bury me in a pot bunker' for years – though I did enjoy it last time I did read it – but I recall Dye saying in that book that he does design his courses to a minimum standard of ability. I can't remember the details of that ability, but getting the ball off the ground comes to mind. Without trying to be funny George, I presume you can do that?

scott

[George Pazin]

I can't remember the details of that ability, but getting the ball off the ground comes to mind. Without trying to be funny George, I presume you can do that?

Yep, got that covered - even hit a few drives that approached the magic 3 zero zero...

[derrickp]

Probably as good as this guy who looked like he is playing the back tees at the new Pound Ridge Golf Club. I can only judge from the pictures because I will never play it but it really looks pretty crowed bar into the property. What is up with that drive on 9? 250 forced carry into a sliver of fairway, wow.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=181267

[Phil McDade]

George:

From my limited exposure to Dye here in Wisconsin -- Blackwolf Run's River and Meadow Valleys courses -- I'd second your views. Both courses are very well done, on some terrific property, but I think they are overly penal for the golfer of modest talents. Whistling Straits, although I haven't played it (walked it several times during the '04 PGA), looked similar.

Reasons -- several forced carries where missing badly is quite penal, greens w/ lots of contour (I mean lots), very penal surrounds (lakes, creeks, high native plants where finding a ball is quite difficult if not impossible) not that far from the fairways and greens. In short, the two Blackwolf Run courses tend to be quite unforgiving. I see the merit of them architecturally, and see their appeal to the better player, but they were both a slog for me.

[David Whitmer]

I have played quite a few Dye courses...off the top of my head, I can think of The Golf Club, Crooked Stick, Brickyard Crossing, Colleton River, Dye Course at PGA Golf Club, The Honors Course, and Kearney Hills Golf Links. It does seem to me that the courses are pretty difficult for the average golfer, even if they choose the correct tee markers. At the courses I have played, it seems like Dye favors small, undulating greens and bunkers with high faces on them (either because the faces were built up or because the bunkers are deep). Since the "average" golfer misses more greens than he hits, I think he has a tough time getting up and down on Dye courses.

I was a club pro at a PB Dye course for 8 years, and it possessed many of the same characteristics. I had never seen such small, undulating greens with deep bunkers next to them! I witnessed many golfers hit the ball from one side of the green to the other, then back again.

I personally like playing Dye courses, but I agree with George's assessment. It seems to me that the average Dye course is very tough for the "average" golfer.

[Ajay Yadav]

Perhaps one needs to question the premise of trying to fit "one course for all" or redefine average.

[Phil McDade]

Perhaps one needs to question the premise of trying to fit "one course for all" or redefine average.

When Dye builds multiple tees on his courses (which he did at the two Blackwolf Run courses), and has a set of tees at 6,110 yds, he and/or the owners are clearly trying to build a course for all but the beginning level of golfer. My previous view still holds.

Average is average -- I'd put it at being a bogey golfer, and the USGA probably would, as well.

[Dan Herrmann]

Pete Dye Golf Club had what I thought were the most difficult green complexes I've ever played.  Length was not an issue to the difficulty - your ball had to be in the right portion of the green in order to have a shot at even a 2-putt.

Maybe it was the hole locations, but - wow - those greens and the surrounds were tough.  The greenside rough was probably 4" of gnarly rough.  Collection areas fed down to shallow hidden bunkers from which escape was challenging because I usually would find my ball adjacent to the edge of the bunker's edge.  And the sand wasn't flush with the surrounding turf - it was probably 6" below the turf, meaning you had the edge of the bunker to contend with.  Sideway bunker escapes were sometimes the only way out.

The 3rd hole, for example, had a landing area about the size of  pitcher's mound.  Anything short, right, or long was in the gnarly rough.  Left would be on the green, but you'd probably need 3 putts to get it home.

On any given par 4 or 5 , the fun started once you got to the green.  And I truly mean that - I had a lot of fun out there, even though I barely broke 100 with ESC.  And my GHIN number is currently 9.9

I was actually amazed that the course rating and slope were so low. 

[David Mulle]

Without meaning to be flippant, I think it depends upon your threshold for pain.

I am a big fan of his courses (I have played Pete Dye Golf Club, Bulle Rock, The Ocean Course and Harbour Town).  But the only one of his courses on which I have scored well was Harbour Town.

Even though I suffer mightly on his courses, I continue to seek them out because you are constantly being confronted with choices. 

For example at PDGC the 2nd hole has a very interesting tee shot with the fairway angled away from the tee.  The golfer must decide how much of the hazard he is comfortable carrying.  In the first round I chickened out and hit it into a bunker because I was too far right.  Made triple bogey.  In the second round I got too aggressive and hooked my drive into the hazard.  Made double bogey.  I was five over on that hole in the two rounds I played there.  Nevertheless, I would jump at the chance to play that hole again.

In the end, I think the key to enjoying his courses is comes down to focusing on the choices he gives you even when you are not able to executie and deriving special joy when you are able to hit a perfect draw 5-wood to a back pin position on 18.

[Phil McDade]

David:

I've never hit a perfect draw 5-wood to any pin in my life. I don't have that kind of game. But it's that kind of design element that Dye seems to build into his courses on the theory that, if you just move the tees up far enough, all range of players can enjoy his courses.

I will note, for comparison purposes, that Lawsonia Links plays at nearly 6,500 yards from the white tees, or close to 400 yards longer than the River Course at Blackwolf Run (which, is alot for a bogey golfer like me). And Lawsonia is a much less penal, and for me more enjoyable, course than the River course.

[David Mulle]

David:

I've never hit a perfect draw 5-wood to any pin in my life. I don't have that kind of game. But it's that kind of design element that Dye seems to build into his courses on the theory that, if you just move the tees up far enough, all range of players can enjoy his courses.

Phil,
 I assure you I don't have that kind of game either.  I was trying to hit my normal fade somewhere up by the green taking the hazard out of play.  I mishit it, it started off way right and then curved back to the pin.  The fact I hit it a little thin gave me that extra distance I needed.  Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good. 

[Dan Herrmann]

David's post #10 that describes the 2nd hole is right on the money.   PDGC is SO full of strategy - it's like drinking water from a hydrant.

Very fun and very memorable (once I started not caring about score and just having a good time)

[George Pazin]

Phil, you should've seen that 5 wood, damn it was puuuuuuuurtty. I don't believe David, I think he hit it just as planned.

Thanks for the responses. I am really hoping Tom D will chime in, and maybe Tim Liddy as well.

And I can't believe Matt hasn't ripped me yet for playing the wrong tees...

[Phil McDade]

And I can't believe Matt hasn't ripped me yet for playing the wrong tees...

Ah, but George, the night is young.....

[Mark Smolens]

I traveled to Ponte Vedra for about 4 years in a row (we had a free place to stay on the beach) with a group of, at best, golfers who met your definition of "average" (my then-7 or 8 handicap was by far the lowest in the group).  When I was finally able to convince some of the guys to play the white tees, they found that hitting fairways was attainable even for the 20 and 25 handicappers.  It wasn't just that the tees were shorter, but they were placed -- brilliantly I thought -- in positions which facilitated the slice of the bogey golfers without needing to carry a lake or a swamp.

I would agree that second shots on the River Course are very difficult, even for the good player, but the place is so incredibly beautiful once you hit the 5th tee, that I would hazard to say that any golfer of any skill level should love the place -- especially in the fall when the leaves have turned.

As for Whistling Straits, I must disagree that it is at all difficult for the high handicappers of the world, again so long as they don't play too far back.  My boss is a 28, and not a very good one at that.  He loved the Straits, finding it very playable, but struggled mightily at the River (tho again, loved the Meadow Valleys, an underrated part of the Kohler experience).

I haven't been to West Va to play the Dye course there, but from what I saw on TV, I'd certainly like to make that trip. . .

[Garland Bayley]

George,

It seems they are trying to tell us in a round about way to move up the the white tees and hit 9 wood. Of course they fail realize we can make snowmen driving with a 9 wood on a 299 yard par 4, which should break down to 180 yd drive, 120 yard PW, one putt birdie, but instead turns into dribble 9 wood into rough off the right of tee for about 50 to 75 yards, hit PW recovery OB, hit next PW recovery to intended target. Miss green with GW into deep trap, luckily escape in 1, two putt, and it's snowing.

[Anthony_Nysse]

its for some of the reason that are posted that I think Long Cove is SOOOOO underrated. There is only 1 bunker in front of a green, forcing a carry. The fairways help you to keep the ball in play and are extremly generous. Long Cove gets hard from the back tees, but the forward tees are very playable and dont leave you beat up. this is why LCC is so popular with its membership and why its so hard to get a tee time. During the building of LCC, Pete and Co. always kept in mind "Lahunta Stovall,' which the ladies Member-Guest is named after. She was an older lady who couldnt carry the ball so far. They always kept her in mind to keep LCC playable. Mr. Dye talks about it in "Bury me in a Pot Bunker."

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Ronald Montesano]

Five Dye for me...the four courses at the American Club (Blackwolf Run's River and Meadows Valley and Whistling Straits' Irish and Straits courses) and Wintonbury Hills GC near Hartford.  The first four are beasts, although I will say that the Blackwolf Run courses cost me more lost balls than did the Straits courses.  I shoot all holes with my camera from the tips and like to play from there, too.  I tend to purchase used ProV1s, so a partially-lost ball doesn't get much of a look from me.  There are holes at all four American Club courses where the total character of the hole changes from tips to forward.  There are some phenomenal holes along the Sheboygan River that must be played from all the way back.  You need three things:  no fear of losing the ball, absolute confidence in your ability to pull it off, and a swing.

Wintonbury Hills is a completely different animal.  It's a kinder, gentler Dye.  As you know, it was negotiated by Brad Klein, who wanted a nice and inexpensive muni for his home area.  I believe Pete did it for $1 or somesuch.  WintHills is pretty wide open and pretty manageable from all tees, although some of the holes from way back are demanding.  Can you play a Dye regardless of ability level?  Yes, if you find yourself near Hartford.

[Andy Troeger]

Having played about 15 Pete Dye courses including some of his best I think it depends on the particular course. As Tony just said, Long Cove would strike me as fairly playable as would The Golf Club. TPC Sawgrass really doesn't have much water in play until the finishing stretch, its there but requires very offline shots to find. The set of courses at Kohler aren't quite as playable, they beat me up pretty good as a 5 hcp at the time, but I think enjoying those courses depends on why you're there, if its to shoot good scores good luck  

George,
Not to get off topic, but how good do you have to be to enjoy/appreciate Oakmont, since its a difficult course you are familiar with? Same question could be applied to any tough course really I would think. Some are better about being challenging for the scratch golfer while playable for everyone else, but being honest most hard courses are hard for everyone.

[Dan Herrmann]

Ronald - I think Wintonbury Hills is co-credited to Tim Liddy and Brad Klein.

[Bart Bradley]

Being born and raised in Indiana, I have played many Pete Dye courses.  Pete's courses are quite diverse, as are the demands of playing them.  The Stadium course at PGA West is just brutal but the Brickyard and the Fort (Indianapolis courses) are quite playable.  Anthony's description of Long Cove sounds like it would be great fun (unfortunately, one of the few acclaimed Dye's I haven't seen).

The answer to the question asked is far more simple however...I think you can be a terrible golfer and appreciate Pete's work.  Even when he kicks my butt, I appreciate his designs...now "enjoy" might be a different matter .

Bart

[Joel Zuckerman]

It's been my fortune (or penance, depending on your perspective) to play about 70+ Dye Courses--50+ just last year.  As the author of the forthcoming book, Pete Dye--Golf Courses--50 Years of Visionary Design, (visit www.petedyebook.com for more information) I traveled far/wide throughout 2007, more often than not playing two Dye designs per day, as I battled both my deadline and an iron game that was mostly AWOL.
A few thoughts:  At least two dozen times pros described their courses as "typical Pete Dye."  In my opinion--no such thing.  Early Dye (Around Indy in the 60s and early 70s) is gentle, very playable, in certain instances almost non-descript.  The Golf Club near Columbus Ohio was Pete's first big time design after Crooked Stick, and its amazing to think he stretched a course to 7,400-odd yards in the late 1960s, with par 4s and par 5s that would be considered massive even in the current era.
His career apex came in the 70s, 80s and early 90s, with Teeth, Oak Tree, PGA West Stadium, Sawgrass--Stadium, Long Cove, Old Marsh, the Kohler quartet, Ocean Course and the aforementioned PDGC, among others.  He enjoyed his rep as the Marquis de Sod, got more notoriety, (remember the Amex commercial he starred in?) bigger paydays, etc.  He's mellowed some with age, though his recent redo in Hilton Head's Sea Pines Plantation (Heron Point) is calculus-hard.
The Dyes love to make the pros sweat, which obviously has a trickle-down effect on lesser players, even as they move to closer range.  But one thing they rarely do--put a hazard in front of a green.  The rationale:  They don't know if a big hitter will be lofting the ball above/beyond with a short iron, or a lesser stick sweating and strangling a 3-wood.  Most of their forced carries come off the tee.

[Ronald Montesano]

True dat, Dan H.  I see the name and forget the actual authors.

I'm excited to play two Pete Dye courses in NE Ohio soon.  Avalon Lakes and Fowlers Mill both date back to the early years.  I drove around them and took photos for a story, but could not afford the time to play.

[Joel Zuckerman]

Ronald;

Both the course you mention are well worthwhile--Avalon Lakes is the centerpiece of a 54-hole private (but bustling..) country club.  Fowler's Mill is public access, very pastoral, a fine walk through the woods.

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