Pat,
You are running a bit free with your facts on this one. In answer to my statement , “The difference [Tilly vs. CBM] is that he never approached a piece of ground upon which to design a golf course and tried to force template holes onto the location…” was “Neither did CBM.”
That isn’t correct. I’d like to quoting old Charley himself from the booklet “National Golf Links of America: Statement of Charles Blair Macdonald” that he sent to the members.
“As to the building of the golf course [NGLA], it is well known that certain holes on certain links abroad are famous as being the best considering their various lengths. It is the object of this association to model each of the eighteen holes after the most famous holes abroad, so that each hole would be representative and classic itself.”
His statement that it was “The object to… model each of the eighteen holes after the most famous of the holes abroad…” doesn’t seem to leave any room for doubt that he was going to create 18 template holes regardless of what the ground was. How anyone can take that statement to mean, “Look guys, a miracle! I found a piece of property where 18 great holes that mimic 18 of the greatest holes abroad!”
Please note that, even though I believe they were “forced,” that is, made to work on the property, that the course IS one of the greatest in the world, both then and now.
You also stated that, “AWT's "Sahara" holes are quite common…” Really now, who says so? I can accept that this is your opinion, but it certainly wasn’t Tilly’s. When he created a hole that was similar in design to a famous one from the other side of the pond HE NAMED IT AS SUCH. How many “Sahara” holes do you know of that Tilly named such? There aren’t many at all…
Now many clubs have named large cross-bunkers that he designed as “Sahara’s” but this is their interpretation and not Tilly’s nor his belief that he created a hole design based upon this template style.
Let’s give you an example of this, a course we both know well. Can you name the “Sahara” hole on Bethpage Black? Don’t be so quick to say the 7th, nor is it the 5th with the large waste cross bunker fronting the tee. Nor is it the 4th with the bunker across the facier of the second plateau. The answer is that Tilly NEVER designed a “Sahara” hole on Bethpage Black. Over the years the bunker on the 7th hole has been called Sahara, but Tilly never did.
You asked me, “Can you show me a number of examples where CBM forced the fit for template holes ?” Why yes, I believe that CB’s own words as shown above states that very thing about NGLA.
You followed that by stating that, “CBM used the existing terrain and designed modified templates based on that topography. He didn't force the fit as you imply.” The first sentence I totally agree with. The NGLA of America is a great example of that. But it was there, as elsewhere, that he DID “force the fit” as I implied. Again, how can I state this? Simply because Macdonald himself did.
He stated that their goal was to “model each of the eighteen holes after the most famous holes abroad…” This decision was made BEFORE the course was built.
When I write, “How can I say that he disdained that practice? Quite easily since Tilly HIMSELF wrote it…” your answer approaches the ludicrous. “Pure nonsense. One's actions speak louder than one's words. The holes he produced refute his written word.”
That is pure nonsense on YOUR part, not Tilly’s. He wrote MANY times, such as when he wrote of Charley’s death in Pacific Coast golfer, that his philosophy was to take what Nature gave him and NOT use preconceived ideas, even when they were his own!
For example, one of his own favorite hole “types” was the double dog-leg par-five. Why then didn’t he have at least one on EVERY one of his designs? He didn’t. He really loved his idea of a “Reef Hole” yet he only designed and built two of them.
Tilly didn’t use templates as a rule, practice or anything other than it was the occasional right thing to do. That is why his “Redan’s” are wonderful iterations of them as are his “Cape’s” etc…
You see, THOSE ARE his actions… The problem here is that you aren’t as familiar with most of his designs… but that only places you in the same category as most everyone else.
Now after I quoted Tilly’s own words about his philosophical differences with Charley Macdonald’s you stated, “Interesting that he ONLY wrote that AFTER MacDonald is unable to respond…” Once again you are mistaken. He wrote of this several times (By the way, in my coming Volume II of Tillinghast writings I have a specific chapter that deals with the design philosophy differences he had with his contemporaries including CBM).
You also accomplished an amazing feat of mind-reading when you said, “You knew I was referencing 18 hole golf courses, not 9 holers or 6 holers...” Come on now, that may be the most absurd comment you made to me (how I hate to quote Tom Paul!). Once again I clearly stated that I took you at YOUR WORD when you wrote quite non-specifically that Tilly had only designed Shawnee before 1915.
Still, you do have a point when you state that, “AWT's work prior to 1915 is miniscule…” but then again, if you change that date to, say, 1920, what do we find?
According to Cornish & Whitten, CB had designed a grand total of SEVEN golf courses by 1920. Still, let’s give him 8 other c that they didn’t give dates for. Well that makes a grand total of FIFTEEN courses… TOTAL. Not 15 designs, but 15 TOTAL…
How does Tilly stack up in 1920? Well Tilly had designed THIRTY-ONE courses that we can DEFINITIVELY date that opened by 1920 & before. That Doesn’t include another NINE that we can definitively date to this time period that were either renovations or additions or both. This ALSO doesn’t include another twenty or so courses that probably were done in this time period and we are still investigating…
I would say that Tilly’s body of work in 1920 makes Charley’s look far more miniscule than that which can be said about 1915 when Charley had only 3 more courses to his credit than Tilly did.
Oh yes, according to Cornish & Whitten, CBM only had three other courses open for play after 1920. (remember I already gave him credit for all of the ones that had no dates). In 1920 alone there is one report that credits Tilly with “currently working on 40 projects nationwide…” Tilly’s final numbers are staggering compared to CBM.
This doesn’t make him a better or greater architect than Charley… it also doesn’t make him a lesser one either.
Pat, this little friendly pissing match came about because I disagree with your three assertions:
1- "NGLA is the root of most all of American golf, including Merion."
2- "MacDonald brought the "Sahara" concept to America from Sandwich, long before AWT ever heard of it."
3- "Prior to 1915 AWT only had one course to his credit, Shawnee."
I can agree to disagree on these with you and tell you that I still respect… both in the morning and now! (And to quote your evil alter-ego Tom Paul,
)