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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #225 on: August 18, 2008, 04:58:47 PM »
Phillip, you seem to have gotten yourself quite worked up here and I am not sure why.   I think you might want to step back and reconsider your accusation that I have been unethical here.    Wayne and Tom's research, analysis, and selective use of the core information speaks for itself on this particular issue.  As does mine.   

Everything I write is my opinion based upon my understanding of the historical record at the time.   Everything is subject to change as more information becomes available.   I am playing no games, but doing the best I can with what I have at the time.   I am trying to consider everything to which I have access, and I will take all the information I can get it, even if I have to sift through information that is mostly unreliable and incomplete. 

You seem to be telling me that I only have two options:  Accept everything they say as gospel truth even though they have not offered any support whatsoever, and even though I know enough about this era to know that what they are saying is not accurate;  or Entirely ignore everything they say because they haven't supported any of it.  

There is a third route, which is a bit more complicated and difficult, and isn't the preferred method, but they leave me no choice:

I will discount, ignore, and/or challenge any and all unsupported and self-serving statements made about Merion's history and about my essay.   In addition, I will carefully examine their statements for internal and external inconsistencies, and for statements that hurt their claims, and I will use what I learn in my search for and analysis of what really happened.   Or to put it bluntly, I will use what they say to undermine their own claims,.

There is nothing unethical about this.  In fact it is how interpretation and analysis works when it is apparent that one side might not be entirely coming clean with all the documents and information.   It is just a matter of trying to see through waters that others have insisted upon muddying.   

Look at it this way.   I don't think they would outright and blatantly lie about what it says in those meeting minutes.   Presumably others, like the ethical men at Merion, would call them upon blatant lies so even if they wanted to outright and blatantly lie (and I am not suggesting this,) they are unlikely to do it in a situation where they will likely be caught.     So there is probably a grain of truth and accuracy in about everything they say about the meeting minutes.   These guys just happen to interpret it in a manner that places the truth in a light most favorable to what they want others to believe.   (If this was not going on, they would simply tell us what these documents say, and let us figure it out for ourselves. ) The trick for me is to try and separate what is true from what is spin or interpretation.     That is all I am doing.  Nothing unethical about it.   On my side at least.

I don't want to get into legal mumbo-jumbo here, but this situation reminds me of certain heresay exceptions sometimes known as an 'admission against interest' and 'declaration against interest.'  The technical details are irrelevant, but the justification for the exceptions is based on human nature and may shed some light on why I have no problem using their words against them.   People rarely make statements against their interests unless the statements are true and accurate.   So when a person makes a statement that goes against that person's interests or that hurts rather than helps that person's claims, then that statement is allowed to be used against them, even it was heresay.  In other words, people lie or exaggerate to help themselves, not hurt themselves.   So if what they say hurts them, it is most likely true, and can be used against them. 

Think if this in terms of TEPaul's and Mike Cirba's claim that M&W returned to the site on the eve of construction to choose the final routing.   This flies directly in the face of their repeated claim that M&W were not directly or significantly involved in planning the course.   They wouldn't make up something that directly flew in the face of their entire argument!  They may try to spin it, discount it, or dismiss it, but they wouldn't make up the underlying fact that M&W returned to the site on the eve of construction to choose the final routing.   

So while I doubt the accuracy of much of what they say, especially when it comes to their baseless attacks on my essay, I believe them when they tell me that [/i]M&W returned to the site on the eve of construction to choose the final routing.[/i]

I may be mistaken in my trust of them on this point, but I don't think they would make something up that virtually destroys everything they have been saying for years!

And by the way, I believe parts of some of the other details that have been offered about what the minutes say, (and can confirm some of them them via other sources.)  But I nonetheless disagree with the meaning and spin they are putting on these details.   

So yes, there is a double-standard here, but it is one created by their inherently duplicitous tactic of insisting that others accept their story as truth while refusing to provide any basis or support.

1.  We should ignore, disregard, and challenge TEPaul's, Wayne Morrison's, and Mike Cirba's claims about Merion's history and their claims about the validity of my essay.   They have refused to offer any support or basis for these claims.   

2)  We should carefully analyze what they say, and focus on internal and external inconsistencies, gaps in time, logic, and causation, and statements made against their interest to try and figure out what really happened.    To the extent that they admit anything that contradicts their claims, we can and should assume that information is true and use that information against them.     
_______________________

As for your claim that Wayne has valid reasons to keep his information confidential, I agree that this may have been the case, but Wayne has not kept the information confidential but has instead selectively used it himself rhetorically and continues to allow it to be selectively used rhetorically on the World Wide Web and elsewhere. 

If he had obligations of privacy or confidentiality to the clubs, he long ago breached them by using the clubs' private material as the supposed basis to attack my work and for allowing this cherry-picking to continue.  It is he who cannot have it both ways.   Either he comes clean and backs up the claims, or he honors whatever obligations he has to the clubs and stops allowing the information to be used piecemeal for rhetorical purposes.   It is an affront to me, gca.com, and the clubs for Wayne and TEPaul and Mike Cirba to wield Wayne's special relationship with the clubs as a sword to attack me, while also claiming the  same relationship prevents them for giving me an opportunity to defend against the baseless attacks!   

Until they figure this out, I will continue not only to defend myself, but will also continue to try and figure out who did what and when at Merion, and will carefully note what they have said about the Meeting Minutes.  This is what I have done since they started leaking information about the minutes.   
_________________________________________________
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 06:12:01 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #226 on: August 18, 2008, 06:49:01 PM »
David,

You are quite wrong when you state, "Phillip, you seem to have gotten yourself quite worked up here." To the contrary, I am quite unaffected by the discussion.

I do strongly believe that standards should be met when one is stating something as ABSOLUTELY FACTUAL as you did. You demand this from Tom & Wayne & Mike and once again say so in your response, yet you both won't hold yourself up to that standard and now attempt to subtly change what you said.

"Everything I write is my opinion based upon my understanding of the historical record at the time."

That is quite true... what I take exception to is that you didn't state that it was YOUR OPINION that M&W were put in charge of the final design of Merion East, but rather that it was a factual certainty.

I called you to provide the proof for this and you not only didn't but stated that it was based upon nothing more than hearsay from those whom you stated should not be paid attention to. That's absurd!

Each time I have asked for the proof from you I even stated that I have no problem if you were stating that it was "Your Opinion" and each time you wouldn't do so and, in fact, did so again in your latest response, while then going off once again criticizing Wayne & Tom & Mike for doing the very things that you are doing.

You stated about me that, "You seem to be telling me that I only have two options..."

That is quite incorrect. You have many options. What you don't have is an ability to state that something is absolute fact and have it accepted only on the basis of your word when you will not give that same privilege to others. This is especially important in any discussion invovling Merion's history because of the nature of how they have devolved into gross incivility among those invovled. 

You state, "I will discount, ignore, and/or challenge any and all unsupported and self-serving statements made about Merion's history and about my essay." I actually don't blame you or disagree with the premise of that statement. What I do take exception to is that you believe that same rule of academic research standard doesn't apply to yourself. 

You state about Tom, Wayne & Paul that "I will use what they say to undermine their own claims..." and that is as it should be; but it is therefor wrong when I do the same to you? 

Consider this statement that you make: "They may try to spin it, discount it, or dismiss it, but they wouldn't make up the underlying fact that M&W returned to the site on the eve of construction to choose the final routing."

I have no problem with M&W being there when the final routing was chosen... I take exception to your stating unequivocably that M&W WERE PUT IN CHARGE OF MAKING THIS DECISION. Once again I ask, where is the proof? Who put them in charge? How can that be accepted as fact.

I, too, am interested in this from an academic standpoint of discovering what actually happened. But that requires that statements given as fact, especially where they are done to disprove long-held accepted facts, must bear the burden of rigid proof.

THAT is all that I have asked of you.

Finally, as I don't want this to devolve as well, I have had my say and will go no further. Either accept my opinion in this matter or not. If you feel need to respond, please very free to do so.
 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 06:55:59 PM by Philip Young »

TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #227 on: August 18, 2008, 07:17:35 PM »
David Moriarty:

Even I didn't think you were capable of putting a post on here as preposterous as that last one (#225)---but you did, and there it is. I would encourage everyone to read carefully what all you said there and consider what it really means. It is the most remarkable total set of distortions, inaccuracies and untruths combined with an attitude of self-importance and egocentrism imaginable.

Wayne Morrison, a member of Merion, and me here in Philadelphia have a lot of friends at Merion and I can guarantee you they have no problem with what we have done on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com as far as our characterizations of the Merion history and the Merion record. However, the same can most certainly not be said about the club, the members who are aware of this website and others in this town about you, and to a lesser extent MacWood.

Merion does not need to have its architectural record and architectural history as it has been reported by the club in history books and such validated via this website, that's for sure, and it most certainly does not need you or MacWood to validate it for them. Let you and everyone else who participates on this website understand that first and foremost. No one, Merion or us, needs you to analyze and characterize and validate what is truth and fact about that history.

By your essay and particularly your follow-up performance over the last few months on the subject, and certainly culminating with that last post you have done a great job of marginalizing yourself and probably this website as well for not only discussions on here about Merion's history but the histories of other clubs who are aware of this website and read it.  

It's a damn shame you came back on here. You should do the right thing and leave and failing that you should probably be removed. You are a real blight, particularly with your outrageous histrionics towards Wayne Morrison, a Merion member. Merion members read this site and they will not forget this outrageous behavior of yours as of course they have every right and reason not to forget it.

This website has never seen anyone like you as far as I can tell and I hope this website never sees someone like you again. Your performance is completely beyond the pale! A few dispassionate souls on here, Phil Young, Peter Pallotta, Kirk Gill etc have given you some very useful advice and you've taken it with umbrage and made stupid accusations at them as well. Even if people like Wayne or Cirba or even me would probably like to see you marginalized at this point there's no point at all for us to do that in any way as you are doing the most effective possible job of it on your own.


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #228 on: August 18, 2008, 07:44:28 PM »
David,
I'm not positive about what you do for a living, but you now remind me of the Johnny Cochrane character, Chiles, in the old Seinfeld sitcom.  Everything is now an "outrage" or some other form of hyperbole.

Unfortunately, borrowing from another sitcom, you've now 'Jumped the Shark'.  Come on, my friend, chill out.



(popular culture references are Google-able if you're not familiar with Chiles or 'jumping the shark')
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 07:49:14 PM by Dan Herrmann »

TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #229 on: August 18, 2008, 07:47:22 PM »
Mr. Moriarty:

One thing I am more than willing to compliment you for is the fact you apparently took the extremely useful and dispassioniate advice of Colorado's Kirk Gill and you removed that quotation you had on the bottom of all your posts in the last few months about me and the USGA Architecture Archive or my roll in your access to clubs or whatever. Believe me, maybe you thought that was hurting me but it definitely wasn't doing your reputation on here much good. The only thing that seems to bother the people I know and respect is that I continue to respond to you at all. ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 08:29:15 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #230 on: August 18, 2008, 07:55:14 PM »
Dan Herrmann:

Come on, you and I need to get together and meet. Everyone who's met you says you are the nicest guy imaginable. I can see you're trying to chill out Moriarty with both humor and friendly persuasion. Good show, pal.

You call me up, Dan, and come down and play Gulph Mills at your convenience and I'll come up to French Creek and go around there and we can discuss architecture to our heart's content.

This website no longer needs this preposterous Merion and Philadelphia challenge that has been conducted by these two self-promoters over the last five years. It has got to stop as there is nothing that can be gained from it.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 07:56:46 PM by TEPaul »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #231 on: August 18, 2008, 08:47:41 PM »
I can tell you seriously that Flynn definitely was an influence on our course.

I think Flynn has been an awesome influence on today's work.

and you betcha - I'll call.   We have some good ideas cookng for some subtle but super changes - fortunately the ideas all come from Gil and Jim, inspired by Mr. Kittleman.   Actually, the fact that Mr. Kittleman was involved out here shows what a great golf community Philly is, doesn't it.    (For those that don't know, Mr. Bill Kittleman was the long time head pro at Merion and acts as a design partner for Hanse Gof Design)

TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #232 on: August 18, 2008, 09:35:51 PM »
Dan:

Bill Kittleman is definitely a piece of work. I'm not sure I've ever really figured out what to make of him and his opinions on bunkers and such.

But let me put it this way---less than a year ago I was walking up the 2nd hole at Merion East with him and when we got to those bunkers on the left in the drive zone I said: "Now Bill, what do you really think of those bunkers and why?" He said something like: "Their shapes really aren't right" and when I asked him to tell me specifically why he started talking about the rise and fall of particular parts of them and how they didn't look right or that naturally occuring to him. I've got to admit he sort of lost me and that made me wonder if the guy really is some kind of bunker genius, not the least reason being Gil told me one time some years ago that Bill had actually figured out a bunker's NATURAL evolution and devolution architectural formula of course depending on something like the general bunker size and shape and weight of the sand.

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #233 on: August 18, 2008, 09:43:53 PM »
Dan

How the hell can Mr. Kittleman do any design work?

Who were his influences?

Did he ever travel overseas?

Just because he spent most of his life in the game and played most of the best courses of his time (like Hugh Wilson in 1910) how is some Philly guy qualified to do anything related to architecture?

Its an outrage I tell you!

Who is the real golf desigb genius behind Bill Kittleman?

Why are you withholding the evidence Dan??? ;)

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #234 on: August 18, 2008, 10:36:18 PM »
This thread is a good barometer of how much interest Philadelphians have in William Flynn.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #235 on: August 18, 2008, 10:53:49 PM »
We've been through the looking glass and back on this issue, but for me it still boils down to this: what did the members of Merion believe about who designed their golf course?

Maybe I have missed something along the way of following this, but has anyone produced evidence that the members of Merion ever doubted their architectural pedigree?

TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #236 on: August 18, 2008, 11:07:17 PM »
"Maybe I have missed something along the way of following this, but has anyone produced evidence that the members of Merion ever doubted their architectural pedigree?"


Bradley:

Of course not! There is only one fact of Merion's long and interesting architectural history that has been misunderstood and misreported for perhaps over a century and that fact is when Wilson went abroad in 1912 and not 1910. For that, I certainly I believe David Moriarty deserves the credit and so does Tom MacWood for that article he found from England in 1912 that reported that fact, and I guess so do I for going back up to the USGA and reconfirming it in that letter from Merion's Richard Francis to Russell Oakley when Wilson was abroad in 1912.

Other than that nothing has changed about the truth and facts of Merion's architectural history and who did the routing and design and when. Macdonald offered Merion advice and suggestions on architectural principles and on their own routing iterations, for which the club gave them commensurate credit. The Merion record has always reflected that. Nothing else has changed in Merion's architectural record and history.

Moriarty and perhaps even MacWood can continue to contend otherwise until they are blue in the face but it will never alter the facts and the truth about who routed and designed Merion East---not ever.


« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 11:15:34 PM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #237 on: August 18, 2008, 11:18:25 PM »
Mr. Paul,

I wonder how many other club founders made a trip to NGLA during that era to see what was going on there?


TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #238 on: August 18, 2008, 11:21:40 PM »
"This thread is a good barometer of how much interest Philadelphians have in William Flynn."


Excuse me, Mr MacWood. We here know more about William Flynn than you could ever hope to---ever. You may be under the naive impression that you can ply the INTERNET for maximum understanding of Flynn but we live here and we know him and his courses and career intimately and apparently you never will. You should come here someday---you might learn a good deal from it but knowing you as I do I wouldn't bet on it.

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #239 on: August 19, 2008, 12:02:40 AM »
"This thread is a good barometer of how much interest Philadelphians have in William Flynn."


Excuse me, Mr MacWood. We here know more about William Flynn than you could ever hope to---ever. You may be under the naive impression that you can ply the INTERNET for maximum understanding of Flynn but we live here and we know him and his courses and career intimately and apparently you never will. You should come here someday---you might learn a good deal from it but knowing you as I do I wouldn't bet on it.

TE
You sure haven't proven it on this thread....in fact it appears you would rather discuss anything other than Flynn.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #240 on: August 19, 2008, 12:03:26 AM »
Phillip, 

It was my opinion and context of the post left no doubt that it was my opinion.  It is not as if I am trying to pull the wool over yours or anyone else's eyes here.   

And Phillip, I do apply the same rules of research and analysis to myself.   When I make a claim I provide the source of my information, and I did so in the post that led you to accuse me of acting unethically.   As for the rest, I understand why you might think that Wayne and TEPaul's word is not even good enough for me to use against them, but I don't see it that way.  I explained this in detail above.
_________________________________

David Moriarty:

Even I didn't think you were capable of putting a post on here as preposterous as that last one (#225)---but you did, and there it is. I would encourage everyone to read carefully what all you said there and consider what it really means. It is the most remarkable total set of distortions, inaccuracies and untruths combined with an attitude of self-importance and egocentrism imaginable.

Wayne Morrison, a member of Merion, and me here in Philadelphia have a lot of friends at Merion and I can guarantee you they have no problem with what we have done on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com as far as our characterizations of the Merion history and the Merion record. However, the same can most certainly not be said about the club, the members who are aware of this website and others in this town about you, and to a lesser extent MacWood.

Merion does not need to have its architectural record and architectural history as it has been reported by the club in history books and such validated via this website, that's for sure, and it most certainly does not need you or MacWood to validate it for them. Let you and everyone else who participates on this website understand that first and foremost. No one, Merion or us, needs you to analyze and characterize and validate what is truth and fact about that history.

By your essay and particularly your follow-up performance over the last few months on the subject, and certainly culminating with that last post you have done a great job of marginalizing yourself and probably this website as well for not only discussions on here about Merion's history but the histories of other clubs who are aware of this website and read it. 

It's a damn shame you came back on here. You should do the right thing and leave and failing that you should probably be removed. You are a real blight, particularly with your outrageous histrionics towards Wayne Morrison, a Merion member. Merion members read this site and they will not forget this outrageous behavior of yours as of course they have every right and reason not to forget it.

This website has never seen anyone like you as far as I can tell and I hope this website never sees someone like you again. Your performance is completely beyond the pale! A few dispassionate souls on here, Phil Young, Peter Pallotta, Kirk Gill etc have given you some very useful advice and you've taken it with umbrage and made stupid accusations at them as well. Even if people like Wayne or Cirba or even me would probably like to see you marginalized at this point there's no point at all for us to do that in any way as you are doing the most effective possible job of it on your own.

TEPaul, 

For me this is not about either my or your popularity at Merion, in Philadelphia, or anywhere else.  It is about 1) figuring out what really happened; and 2)  defending my work against your baseless claims.   

If Merion is happy with your behavior (and I doubt they are) then one might question their judgment but that is ultimately their decision to make.   Same goes for their opinion of me.    I'll go about my business regardless.

But let us remember that it was not me who pulled Merion down into this muck.   I was trying to work with Wayne to get to the bottom of all this before Wayne began publicly attacking me using supposedly secret information from Merion.   You and Wayne and Mike Cirba continue to cherry-pick Merion's private information and using it rhetorically to attack my essay.  I have every right to demand that you support your baseless claims.  Not only that, but if you really were worried about Merion's privacy then why are you selectively and rhetorically using their supposedly private documents on a public website?

Lastly Tom, I'd appreciate if you would identify the distortions, inaccuracies and untruths in my post 225.   I've reviewed it and it seems entirely accurate.   But perhaps you could start another thread on the issue so we can return to William Flynn?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 12:05:45 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #241 on: August 19, 2008, 12:50:01 AM »
David,

I was not planning to make another comment on this issue, but your blatant FABRICATION as to what I CLEARLY stated forces me to respond.

You wrote, "As for the rest, I understand why you might think that Wayne and TEPaul's word is not even good enough for me to use against them, but I don't see it that way..."

Where did I ever, even a single time stae that or even imply it?

The answer is not a single place or occasion.

I stated that YOU STATED THAT THEIR WORD WAS NOT TO BE GIVEN CREDENCE... NEVER did I state this to be the case. I also NEVER stated that YOUR WORD was not to be given credence. I DID state that if you state that they need to back up a claim with verifiable facts in order for their statements to be accepted then it is incumbent upon YOU TO MEET THAT SAME STANDARD REGARDING YOUR OWN CLAIMS.

So once again I ask you to answer the questions I posed and as I have done in every one of these posts and which you have yet to do.

You stated unequivocably that M&W WERE PUT IN CHARGE of making the FINAL GOLF COURSE ROUTING Decision by a member or members of Merion. You even went so far as to state that you were sure of the identity of the person even though you "couldn't do so with 100%" accuracy.

That is why I asked these questions whose answers you keep refusing to give:

1- Of M&W being given the authority to make the final routing decision on behalf of Merion, WHERE and WHAT is the PROOF of that?

2- Who put them in charge? What is the proof of that?

For the final time I can easily accept you simply stating that it is your BELIEF or OPINION... But inorder to do so you must state that what you wrote earlier was then either incorrect or poorly communicative of what you meant to say, and there in lies your conundrum. For if Tom & Wayne & Mike must be criticized for taking information, hearsay or otherwise, and be discredited for stating things as factual without meeting a standard that you demand of them, you also must be criticized for doing the exact same thing that you claim they did...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #242 on: August 19, 2008, 03:00:21 AM »
Phillip,

I've answered your questions repeatedly as best I can.   Sorry if that doesnt satisfy you, but frankly, I don't think that what you are demanding of me is reasonable or necessary.   My post was not poorly worded, I said what I meant.

  So we will have to agree to disagree on this one. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #243 on: August 19, 2008, 06:57:21 AM »
Dan

How the hell can Mr. Kittleman do any design work?

Who were his influences?

Did he ever travel overseas?

Just because he spent most of his life in the game and played most of the best courses of his time (like Hugh Wilson in 1910) how is some Philly guy qualified to do anything related to architecture?

Its an outrage I tell you!

Who is the real golf desigb genius behind Bill Kittleman?

Why are you withholding the evidence Dan??? ;)

Mike,
Yes - I am withholding evidence - you've caught me.

I can now tell you that Bill's original "wave" bunker at FC #17 was restored this year by a crew of mysterious visiting Scotsmen.  I also neglected to mention that the back tee at #17 is at a 45 degree angle to the hole's routing.

It's obvious that Bill didn't know what he was doing when he designed that wave bunker and the funky tee.

(#17 at FC is actually a wonderful par 3 with a mini-redan green, a fantastic 'wave' bunker, and a back tee that really is cantered 45 degrees from play - it's pure quirk but pure genius.  You can see it clearly from PA23 if you're in the area)

Fonzie (once known as David) - it's obvious that folks with only inspiration as their education can and have created some golf architecture masterpieces.  Yes - today you have Ivy-league education that can help, but it still takes an artist to creat greatness. 

William Flynn was an all-time great designer who understood the ground game and the mental game.  I think his primary influence was Mr. Hugh Wilson and his great design at Merion East.  I also think he was influenced by Findlay.  And, of course, any great architect draws inspiration from all the greats that went before him.

Flynn's work at Rolling Green, Lehigh, Shinny, Cherry Hills, Lancaster, etc... is absolutely wonderful. 

And, what about Howard Toomey?   How did Toomey influence Flynn?


TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #244 on: August 19, 2008, 10:32:44 AM »
"Who is the real golf design genius behind Bill Kittleman?"


Mike and Dan:

Bill Kittleman told me the design genius who influenced him the most was Albert Camus even though he may not be able to prove that on GOLFCLUBATLAS to Mr. Moriarty and MR. MacWood's satisfaction.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #245 on: August 19, 2008, 12:29:08 PM »
Mr. Paul,

I wonder how many other club founders made a trip to NGLA during that era to see what was going on there?


Bradley,

That's a great question.

One that's worth pursuing.

It would be interesting to know which designers and which courses were influenced by a visit to NGLA, and, how that influence manifested itself.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #246 on: August 19, 2008, 12:33:16 PM »
Patrick,
I'll bet that a visit to NGLA was on the itenerary with the British Isles trips these guys took.  I also wonder if they visited early North American courses like Royal Montreal for inspiration.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #247 on: August 19, 2008, 02:45:58 PM »
Patrick,

A visit to NGLA would have been quite an experience don't you think. I can't imagine the fun those guys musthave had.

George Bahto could probably answer this question: was MacDonald at this point really enthuised about what he was doing and also so proud of it that he was happy to show other golf enthusiasts around and explain the principles and the science behind what he was doing?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #248 on: August 19, 2008, 03:54:38 PM »
Bradley,

CBM invited the best players of the day to test his creation, hence I'm fairly certain that he wanted NGLA showcased to America.

It had to be quite a revelation.

GCGC, as terrific as it was, was on a rather flat piece of property.

NGLA's land is quite stunning with innumerable elevation changes, twists and turns and spectacular views.

Dan Herrmann,

I would think that NGLA got far more visits than the UK due to the ease in getting there.  By 1870 the railroads had reached Southampton, thus getting to NYC and then to NGLA was much easier than getting to the UK.

I believe that the early predecessors to the Sunrise and Montauk Highways
existed by 1910 as well

TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #249 on: August 19, 2008, 08:53:33 PM »
"Mr. Paul,
I wonder how many other club founders made a trip to NGLA during that era to see what was going on there?"

Bradley:

Sorry, I saw that good question and forgot to respond.

I think a lot of people stopped in at NGLA when Macdonald was building it, just as numerous architects and others did at Pine Valley when Crump was building that.

There's actually a most interesting account by Macdonald himself (but in his book about fifteen years later) explaining the visit he had from Horace Huthinson in 1910. Apparently Hutchinson spent about three days at NGLA and a week with Macdonald at his home in Roslyn, Long Island. During Huthinson's visit to NGLA in 1910 Macdonald explained how Hutchinson showed him how to drop pebbles or small stones on a artificial surface and then imitate their random arrangement with contours on putting greens. I believe Macdonald also explained that's what he did on the course's greens which seems a bit strange since the course was apparently finished or very close to finished in 1910 although Macdonald did make changes to it for years.

As far as I know MCC (Merion) may've been the first club to go to Macdonald for architectural advice for a project the way they did and then have him come and advize them. The next course Macdonald did after NGLA was Piping Rock in Locust Valley, Long Island.



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