William Flynn's influences

[Thomas MacWood]

David
I think it is very unlikely Flynn had anything to do with Highland. Throughout that summer he was playing local events and was back at school in the fall.

[TEPaul]

"So, as I mentioned to you, I think David & Tom's research has been very valuable overall, and even with all of the acrimony, it seems we've all collectively learned a lot during this whole process despite ourselves."


Mike Cirba:

To me the most interesting thing that's come out of all this is despite their contention that if Wilson did not go abroad in 1910 or prior to the construction of the golf course that had to mean he was far too inexperienced to have done  or even been able to do what he obviously did do in 1911.

The fact that he did it anyway should probably both increase the legend of Hugh Wilson but most importantly hopefully increase the understanding of ALL of us in some of the realities of that fascinating time and some of the people like Wilson who worked in it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

What we've learned about Hugh Wilson through this process (and the Cobb's Creek research) has moved my personal opinion of him from previously having considerable, if slightly confused respect into total, jaw-dropping awe.

[DMoriarty]

"I believe you are incorrect.
It would seem that David's research corrected an error in Merion's history, namely, Wilson's alleged travels abroad prior to designing Merion."


Patrick:

That is absolutely correct. But to be technically correct what David Moriarty discovered was that Wilson really did go abroad in 1912. He did that with ship manifest research. But that doesn't explain much about what he did over there then. What he actually went over there for in March/April 1912 was confirmed by two other discoveries;

1. Tom MacWood finding a article in an English newspaper reporting what he was over there for.
2. A letter I found in the "agronomy" files this year from Richard Francis to Russell Oakley mentioning Wilson's 1912 trip abroad.

As far as proving a 1910 trip probably never happened, David Moriarty did not do that. We did. We believe we found the app. date or era when that story was first generated. David Moriarty definitely did not discover that even if he might try to claim he did somehow.

In my opinion, the 1912 trip abroad is what he contributed to Merion's history. All the rest about Macdonald doing a routing in 1910 and H.H. Barker contributing to Merion's design, the Francis late night visit to Lloyd in 1910 is highly speculative and frankly has been proven false by other recordings and other events of that time.

Of course he might try to continue to deny that as he always has but nevertheless it's the truth. The other salient point is that it does not become the truth when he actually gets to look at it and analyze it. This rationale that everyone is lying if they don't agree with his conjecture has really gotten old and has been completely debunked anyway.

But that's just the way it goes with the life and times of some researcher from afar. So it's not his fault---it's pretty much an inherent reality for his kind of research methodology.

The proceeding paragraphs are largely misleading and inaccurate..  My draft essay addresses each false and misleading point. 

In fact, so far as I know and considering source material since discovered, the draft essay is a largely accurate account of the origins of Merion East.  It has a few minor errors as any draft would, and it still contains one mistaken supposition (clearly identified as such) that is probably more an issue of timing than of substance.   If there is evidence to the contrary, I'd be glad to review it, consider it, and alter my essay accordingly, but thus far I have seen no such evidence.

Mike Cirba's post above is also extremely misleading.  Like TEPaul, he insists that we take his word for what is contained in the documents recently(?) retrieved from MCC.   There is no justifiable reason why we should not let these documents speak for themselves.   Until they are allowed to, everything written about these documents should be disregarded or at least be taken with a large grain of salt.

But all this is irrelevant to the topic of the thread, which is about William Flynn's Influences.   I wonder if perhaps we can focus on that instead of continuing to digress into yet another Merion thread.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

Would you mind explaining why you responded to that? It was written to Pat Mucci, not you. 

[Thomas MacWood]

When did Flynn move to Philadelphia?

[TEPaul]

"When did Flynn move to Philadelphia?"

I'd be glad to tell you that but you'll have to show me what you have on Willie Campbell and Myopia first.   

Furthermore, for a guy who claims do his own "independent" "expert" research you sure do ask others a ton of questions!

[DMoriarty]

Would you mind explaining why you responded to that? It was written to Pat Mucci, not you. 

Sure.  I responded because, while not addressed to me, the post was largely about me.

Furthermore, for a guy who claims do his own "independent" "expert" research you sure do ask others a ton of questions!

That is exactly what researchers do.  Ask questions. And ask and ask.

[TEPaul]

"That is exactly what researchers do.  Ask questions. And ask and ask."


Mr. Moriarty, sir:

Well, you finally got something right on here. That sure is what at least two on here do constantly. And when they get the answers, within less than 24 hours, they also have an interesting way of trying to make it look like they knew the answer all along or that it's all wrong and the source must have been lying.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Paul,

Just a thought, but why not answer Tom Macwood's question as to when Flynn moved to Philadelphia? If for no other reason than to where the "white hat" as the good guy whether he gives you the Willie info or not?

Go ahead... you'll feel good about yourself... Heck, I'll even give you one of these 

[Joe Bausch]

Dan is about the nicest man on the planet and the only thing I can imagine that would piss him off is watching something that he deems as being purposefully hurtful to someone who doesn't deserve it.

Or I think #10 at the Pete Dye Golf Club can piss off Dan too.   

[Dan Herrmann]

Joe - #10 on Thursday - Friday was a lot better

[TEPaul]

"When did Flynn move to Philadelphia?"


OK, Mr. MacWood:

I'm not sure why I should do this with the way you've been acting with your pledge not to help me or us in any way but I'm feeling super-generious today so I will answer your question.

Flynn technically can be considered to have moved to Philadelphia when the constable of North Philadelphia observed him steaking past the city line on the north side of town at about 83mph on his new Indian motorcycle on Dec. 30th 1910 at 11:39pm.

The new Mrs. Flynn (nee Gardner, of Boston Brahmin fame) was on the back clinging to William as she had been for the last seventeen hours from Milton Mass. The constable reported there was a pet canary clinging to the top of Mrs. Flynn's helmet and on the gas tank in front of Bill was the family pug named Peabo (named for Mrs. Flynn's tenth cousin, the famous Boston Brahmin Augustus Peabody Gardner). Peabo, the pug was all decked out in little canine goggles and a little leather canine motorcycle helmet.

Apparently, young William's eyesight was not that great and whenever Peabo the pug spotted a bump or pothole he would sort of crotch down on the gas tank to take the shock so Willie F knew to hit the brakes hard or swerve.

You heard the facts and the straight skinny here and from me, Mr. MacWood, and don't forget it because now you owe me bigtime, because now you know when William Flynn moved to Philadelpha.

William Flynn had arrived in Philadelphia and the rest is history!

[TEPaul]

"5/1910 - Alex Findlay is reinstated as an amateur"


Mr. MacWood:

Now that is a very interesting item. Can you tell me any of the circumstances behind that? Obviously that must have meant that Findlay agreed to never take remuneration for architecture or anything to do with golf again or at least for the next nine years to a decade until the so-called "architects exemption" came into being.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom MacWood - I don't doubt the reinstatement of Findlay...  But wouldn't it have been very difficult to do in a day that really frowned on the professional?  I think Tom Paul is SO right when he brings up the era of the (usually rich) well-educated, totally amateur sportsman.

It was an interesting time - Post Spanish-American War, but before WW I.  From what I remember of my history (a LONG time ago), this was a relatively enlightened time in US history.  I could certainly be wrong, though...

[Thomas MacWood]

Dan
When Findlay asked for his reinstatement his profession was selling golf equipment. He bascially ran the sporting goods giant Wannemaker's golf operation. He was also a very successful golf architect. Not to mention he wrote a column on golf.

Why the USGA reinstatement him is a very good question. I can guarantee you he did not take a vow of poverty. The NY press reported, "This is one of the few cases on record where a professional has succeeded in getting back into the 'Simon pure' fold. Findlay, who is a Scotchman by birth, is now in business in this city." The USGA president was Herbert Jaques of Brookline.

I suspect Findlay's trip overseas may have had impact upon why he desired to become an amatuer. He found amateurs in the UK were the most respected designers and were dominating the field, and were also making a very comfortable living. After he was reinstated if anything his profile at Wannamakers and as a golf architect grew. To my knowledge he never attempted to make splash as an amateur golfer.

There is a tendency to over generalize these amateurs. Each has a different story and circumstances.

[Thomas MacWood]

"When did Flynn move to Philadelphia?"


OK, Mr. MacWood:

I'm not sure why I should do this with the way you've been acting with your pledge not to help me or us in any way but I'm feeling super-generious today so I will answer your question.

Flynn technically can be considered to have moved to Philadelphia when the constable of North Philadelphia observed him steaking past the city line on the north side of town at about 83mph on his new Indian motorcycle on Dec. 30th 1910 at 11:39pm.

The new Mrs. Flynn (nee Gardner, of Boston Brahmin fame) was on the back clinging to William as she had been for the last seventeen hours from Milton Mass. The constable reported there was a pet canary clinging to the top of Mrs. Flynn's helmet and on the gas tank in front of Bill was the family pug named Peabo (named for Mrs. Flynn's tenth cousin, the famous Boston Brahmin Augustus Peabody Gardner). Peabo, the pug was all decked out in little canine goggles and a little leather canine motorcycle helmet.

Apparently, young William's eyesight was not that great and whenever Peabo the pug spotted a bump or pothole he would sort of crotch down on the gas tank to take the shock so Willie F knew to hit the brakes hard or swerve.

You heard the facts and the straight skinny here and from me, Mr. MacWood, and don't forget it because now you owe me bigtime, because now you know when William Flynn moved to Philadelpha.

William Flynn had arrived in Philadelphia and the rest is history!

TE
You do write some entertaining fiction.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom MacWood,
Findlay was apparently designing golf courses in the early 1920's.  Do you think he got his amateur status back, but then turned pro again when he was paid for designing Philly area courses like Reading CC and Coatesville CC (1921).

PS - Apparently Findlay's son, Norman, did a lot of design work too.

Here's a well written account of Findlay's career:  http://www.talamorepa.com/history6.html

[TEPaul]

"TE
You do write some entertaining fiction."

Mr. MacWood:

Thank you, that's because I really don't know when Flynn moved to Philadelphia. I guess we could ask his daughter for you but I fail to see the point of that as you and the other M&M boy almost automatically don't seem to believe anything she says anyway. What does she know, she is only his daughter but she wasn't even born at that point? Maybe you can find the answer somewhere on the Internet which for whatever it's worth appears to be your primary source of information.

[TEPaul]

Dan:

I believe it was around 1920 or so that the USGA instituted the so-called "architect exemption" to their amateur status rules. That effectively exempted from amateur playing status violation all professional architects. At that point Tillinghast could have gotten his amateur playing status back but he never bothered.

There is something odd about Findlay getting his amateur status back in 1910 considering what he did. This may need some further investigation because it may say more about the state of professional architecture and professional architects in 1910 and earlier----eg perhaps it was so minimal or so divorced from the type of people who played amateur golf of the tournament or championship variety that the USGA just hardly considered it.

We certainly know that a few years later when Watson was the president of the USGA a lot of people got in trouble with their amateur status such as Travis, Tillinghast, Quimet etc.

This might help explain why some of those "amateur/sportsmen" designers did what they did in this early era but never really did it again later after about WW1.

I'm going to see what the USGA Amateur Status Committee knows about some of the details of this history.

What was really going on architect-wise and by whom in this era needs some serious investigation for sure. This could definitely shed some helpful light on why MCC went the amateur architect route with a few of their members the way Macdonald had been doing with NGLA. I think it may've been one of the primary reasons they turned to him. By the way they described both him and Whigam would certainly indicate it.

There's a wonderful speech by the longtime secretary of MCC on the club's fiftieth anniversary (1915) on the glories of amateurism and the amateur/sportsman and how proud the club was of its ethos that way. He said he felt the club was the greatest representation of that pure amateur sportsman culture in the nation.

Additionally, we sure do know that Herbert Leeds of Myopia was totally fixated on the ethos of amateurism and the amateur/sportsman. In a real way he was a total martinet towards professionals not letting them near the clubhouse.

This needs to be looked into far more.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom Paul  - thanks for the info - I wasn't sure of the date that the USGA allowed architects to keep their amateur status.

[TEPaul]

Dan:

That sure is a fine account of Findlay's life and times. Thanks for posting it. For years, perhaps mostly because of Force & Co. work at Tavistock, I've been aware of how remarkably early Alex Findlay got to America and how prevalently he began promoting golf over here so early.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom MacWood,
Findlay was apparently designing golf courses in the early 1920's.  Do you think he got his amateur status back, but then turned pro again when he was paid for designing Philly area courses like Reading CC and Coatesville CC (1921).

PS - Apparently Findlay's son, Norman, did a lot of design work too.

Here's a well written account of Findlay's career:  http://www.talamorepa.com/history6.html

Dan
Findlay never stopped designing golf courses or selling golf equipment. I'm not sure how long his amateur status lasted, 1916 at the latest. That is when the USGA came down on those selling golf equipment. The following year they came down on golf architects. Frank Woodward was USGA president during this period.

In 1919 the USGA changed the wording of the amatuer policy that made even more stringent and all incompassing. Caddies 16 years of age and older were barred from competing as amateurs. In 1923 they changed the way interpreted the rule, and allowed golf architect William Langford to compete at Flossmoor. The Western GA hadn't recognized the USGA's ban on golf architects, so Langford had been competing as amateur for several years in their events. The R&A never recongnized the banning of architects either.

As an aside John Wanamaker was very active in Republican politics, like WB Plunkett, and from what I understand Findlay was also interested in politics.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom Paul and Tom MacWood- interesting times, weren't they...   The USGA of those days would not be happy with today's rules of amateur status. 

Thanks for the good info.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I believe you are incorrect.
It would seem that David's research corrected an error in Merion's history, namely, Wilson's alleged travels abroad prior to designing Merion."


Patrick:

That is absolutely correct.

But to be technically correct what David Moriarty discovered was that Wilson really did go abroad in 1912. He did that with ship manifest research. But that doesn't explain much about what he did over there then. What he actually went over there for in March/April 1912 was confirmed by two other discoveries;

1. Tom MacWood finding a article in an English newspaper reporting what he was over there for.
2. A letter I found in the "agronomy" files this year from Richard Francis to Russell Oakley mentioning Wilson's 1912 trip abroad.

None of that would have occured if David hadn't presented his essay.

As far as proving a 1910 trip probably never happened, David Moriarty did not do that.

Had David not presented his essay, the erroneous account of the timing of Wilson's trip would have continued the previously accepted myth.

As such, you must give David credit for discovering that Wilson never sailed abroad until 1912.

We did. We believe we found the app. date or era when that story was first generated. David Moriarty definitely did not discover that even if he might try to claim he did somehow.

If I recall correctly it was David that presented the 1912 Manifest and David that claimed that no other manifest in 1910 evidenced Wilson's trip.
I believe that David also documented Wilson's activities in 1910, including golf tournaments, that would lead prudent men to conclude that Wilson couldn't be in two places at the same time.

To deny David credit for stating that Wilson didn't go abroad in 1910 would be wrong.

In my opinion, the 1912 trip abroad is what he contributed to Merion's history.

Directly and indirectly I think he contributed far more.

All the rest about Macdonald doing a routing in 1910 and H.H. Barker contributing to Merion's design, the Francis late night visit to Lloyd in 1910 is highly speculative and frankly has been proven false by other recordings and other events of that time.

Clearly, David's essay led to further discoveries by various parties.
But, without David's initial essay, none of that would have happened.

You must give the Devil his Due, David earned it, despite the animosity between interested parties.

Of course he might try to continue to deny that as he always has but nevertheless it's the truth. The other salient point is that it does not become the truth when he actually gets to look at it and analyze it. This rationale that everyone is lying if they don't agree with his conjecture has really gotten old and has been completely debunked anyway.

I look at it differently.

When relevant material is witheld, for whatever the reason, it creates an air of doubt on the part of the parties not privy to such information.
I think that's an understandable emotion or position.

But that's just the way it goes with the life and times of some researcher from afar. So it's not his fault---it's pretty much an inherent reality for his kind of research methodology.

I think David did an outstanding job with the information that he had access to.

He certainly helped to correct and rewrite Merion's history and that's a valuable contribution by any standard.