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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2008, 06:01:08 PM »
Wayne,
Just get your Flynn book published and most of these questions and critics will be silenced.  If nothing else, do an abbreviated version (250 pages will do) as golf architecture would benefit from something like this.  As you know, I am tempted to publish something on Flynn if you and Tom decide not to do so or just want to stick with the 2000 page multi-volume version which unfortunatley I do not believe will help get the message out on Flynn (even I would struggle to read 2000 pages) and I love the guy almost as much as you do ;D 

wsmorrison

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2008, 06:09:42 PM »
Mark,

The book is being edited by Tom Paul.  The writing is complete (about 1700 pages).  In addition, we are carving out a series of golf course histories (Merion, Shinnecock, TCC, Philadelphia Country, Huntingdon Valley, Indian Creek, etc) as clubs have indicated interest in this.  Feedback to date is very positive.  However, we mean to stick to the three volume set with a DVD including all hole drawings and routing maps.  It is meant as a reference book and not a glossy to look good on a coffee table.  This takes time.  We are in no rush.  Have you ever tried to rush Tom Paul?  It is impossible  ;)

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2008, 06:27:51 PM »

William Flynn (of Milton, MA) was married to a Gardner, one of the most prominent families in Boston.  It would not surprise me that his wife's family were of the same family tree.  Fascinating that a young Irish-American lad of working-class parents married into that family.  I guess being captain of the Milton HS golf, basketball, baseball and football teams made the Boston Brahman lass swoon a bit.


Wayne
Based on your speculation (and your confusion with Wilson's voyage) it doesn't appear you had much luck negotiating ancestry.com. Old newspapers and magazines are also a good source of info on Flynn...that is where the majority of the background info came from. Obviously you are aware of Flynn's athletic accomplishements, did you know he was 5'4" a buck thirty-four?

I should have noted on my post that Flynn's decision to change course from golf professional to a superintendant/course constructor was likely a result of an injury. You might want to ask his daughter about that.

Using multiple and creative resources, crediting or discrediting, no one really cares about that, what people care about is getting the facts correct and telling the complete story. Hopefully your hesitance to discuss Flynn's background is not an omen.

wsmorrison

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2008, 06:56:26 PM »
Good Bye, Tom.  I am through with you.  You are too much like your protege.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 06:59:27 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2008, 07:37:08 PM »
What I've seen of the Flynn book indicates that it's all about the golf courses he built or redesigned...it's about golf course architecture.

It is not tabloid journalism, or trying to get into a man's head 60 years after his death to try and draw some type of conclusions.

As much as I respect your research, Tom, your poking around the edges here is really not productive and I wish it wasn't so personal.   Once again, you can do so much better.

Wayne doesn't need my defense, but I really wish we could get past all this nonsense because there is a whole lot of positive we could do working together instead of at odds in some competitive scramble for facts that seems only designed to show the others how ignorant they really are.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2008, 07:37:17 PM »
Tom - why DID you re-ask this question after you got your answer in 2002?

TEPaul

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2008, 08:40:49 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

If you're interested in the life of William Flynn and his family's history, the best place to start is by interiewing his daugther as we did for perhaps five hours.

If you want to try to impress some of the contributors on this website by attempting to prove her wrong about her father and her family's history, by all means go for it, but we have no interest in engaging in a question and answer session with you or listening to you speculate about how your indirect newspaper and magazine research trumps Flynn's daughter for accuracy or proves her wrong about the man and his family's history.

That's probably all I need to say on the subject, as it isn't hard to tell reading the last few days of this thread that this is just another one of many from you and that other guy trying to promote yourselves as researchers. I, for one, am not interested anymore in that ongoing gig with the two of you.

For you to deserve any researh credibility on this website hereinafter, I believe the first thing you need to do is stop hedging on your claim about Willie Campbell and Myopia. This is not complex---it's pretty much as simple as that.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 08:50:48 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2008, 11:46:58 PM »
I think I have a pretty good handle on Flynn's early life in Boston, but one thing I've never been able to figure out is how Flynn (and Pinkering) ended up in Philadelphia. What was the connection?

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2008, 11:52:04 PM »
Tom - why DID you re-ask this question after you got your answer in 2002?

Dan
I got the answer in 2001? From who and what was the answer?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 11:54:22 PM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2008, 11:56:47 PM »
What I've seen of the Flynn book indicates that it's all about the golf courses he built or redesigned...it's about golf course architecture.

It is not tabloid journalism, or trying to get into a man's head 60 years after his death to try and draw some type of conclusions.

As much as I respect your research, Tom, your poking around the edges here is really not productive and I wish it wasn't so personal.   Once again, you can do so much better.

Wayne doesn't need my defense, but I really wish we could get past all this nonsense because there is a whole lot of positive we could do working together instead of at odds in some competitive scramble for facts that seems only designed to show the others how ignorant they really are.

Tabloid journalism? What exactly has been tabloid journalism on this thread. What do you call this: "I guess being captain of the Milton HS golf, basketball, baseball and football teams made the Boston Brahman lass swoon a bit."

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2008, 12:12:07 AM »
Mike Cirba.

Tabloid journalism?  I suggest you two take a look at MacWood's list above.  It is quite productive and there is nothing "tabloid" or periphery about it. 

It wasn't Tom MacWood who went on and on about the working class Irish lad . . .  captain of every team . . .  the swooning upper crust elite Boston Brahmin debutante . . . the family history and Mayflower lineage . . . the father who helped create The Country Club Course . . . the return to work on his father-in-law's course.  This all seems more Harlequin Romance than tabloid journalism to me.  Whatever it is, it is not Tom MacWood's idea of research and analysis.   

As for it being personal, it is only to the extent that you guys have made it personal.     

_______________________

Tom - why DID you re-ask this question after you got your answer in 2002?

Dan, while I thought that the 2002 thread was a terrific example of the way these conversations should go, if you look at Tom MacWood's list above, I think you'll find that he well beyond what was covered in the 2002 thread.    In other words, he did not get his answers then, and I doubt he has them now.   

And Dan, despite Wayne's attacks, rudeness, and mischaracterizations throughout, I think I learned more about William Flynn in this and the 2002 thread than I have in my entire time on gca.com.

It is a shame that unlike in 2002 no one else seems to have anything to offer.   

__________________________

Mr. MacWood:

If you're interested in the life of William Flynn and his family's history, the best place to start is by interiewing his daugther as we did for perhaps five hours.

If you want to try to impress some of the contributors on this website by attempting to prove her wrong about her father and her family's history, by all means go for it, but we have no interest in engaging in a question and answer session with you or listening to you speculate about how your indirect newspaper and magazine research trumps Flynn's daughter for accuracy or proves her wrong about the man and his family's history.

Generally, it is hard to imagine less reliable recollections than those of daughters about their fathers, unless it be mothers about their sons.  So while an interview with an elderly daughter may be a terrific place to start researching, it is a horrible place to stop researching. 

Quote
For you to deserve any researh credibility on this website hereinafter, I believe the first thing you need to do is stop hedging on your claim about Willie Campbell and Myopia. This is not complex---it's pretty much as simple as that.

Tom MacWood has credibility because he researches thoroughly and accurately.  I think your repeated demands that he do your research for you ought to impact your credibility more than his refusal does his. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 12:26:55 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2008, 12:13:54 AM »
I think I have a pretty good handle on Flynn's early life in Boston, but one thing I've never been able to figure out is how Flynn (and Pinkering) ended up in Philadelphia. What was the connection?

Just a guess, but could Findlay have had anything to do with it? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2008, 12:14:51 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

If you're interested in the life of William Flynn and his family's history, the best place to start is by interiewing his daugther as we did for perhaps five hours.

If you want to try to impress some of the contributors on this website by attempting to prove her wrong about her father and her family's history, by all means go for it, but we have no interest in engaging in a question and answer session with you or listening to you speculate about how your indirect newspaper and magazine research trumps Flynn's daughter for accuracy or proves her wrong about the man and his family's history. 

That's probably all I need to say on the subject, as it isn't hard to tell reading the last few days of this thread that this is just another one of many from you and that other guy trying to promote yourselves as researchers. I, for one, am not interested anymore in that ongoing gig with the two of you.

For you to deserve any researh credibility on this website hereinafter, I believe the first thing you need to do is stop hedging on your claim about Willie Campbell and Myopia. This is not complex---it's pretty much as simple as that.

TE
Flynn's daughter claimed Flynn's father (her grandfather) died when Flynn was a boy. He did not, if fact he was doing quite well when she was born in 1922. I'm not sure when grandpa died but he was going strong in 1930. I also suspect she is the source of the story about Flynn being a tennis pro and the Hartwellville legend. Also your dates are off by a year or more on some the important events of his life. No doubt she is an excellent source of information but memories dim and facts get blurred over multiple decades. I think confirmation would be in order.

Were you the person who suggested Flynn's wife was from the prominent Gardner family?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 07:22:27 AM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2008, 12:21:31 AM »
I think I have a pretty good handle on Flynn's early life in Boston, but one thing I've never been able to figure out is how Flynn (and Pinkering) ended up in Philadelphia. What was the connection?

Just a guess, but could Findlay have had anything to do with it? 

David
Findlay is a very good possibility, in fact he took the entire Merion crew with him to redesign another nearby course in 1913. But as far as I know Findlay had no connection to Merion or Macdonald, how did they end up in Philly. In an article Findlay does referrence Pickering being involved in Atlanta, and all three of the courses in Atlanta were Barker projects. I think Barker is another possibility.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 12:25:47 AM by Tom MacWood »

wsmorrison

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2008, 07:37:21 AM »
My statement:

William Flynn (of Milton, MA) was married to a Gardner, one of the most prominent families in Boston.  It would not surprise me that his wife's family were of the same family tree.  Fascinating that a young Irish-American lad of working-class parents married into that family.  I guess being captain of the Milton HS golf, basketball, baseball and football teams made the Boston Brahman lass swoon a bit.

Mortimer Snerd's version:

. . . the father who helped create The Country Club Course . . . the return to work on his father-in-law's course.  This all seems more Harlequin Romance than tabloid journalism to me.  Whatever it is, it is not Tom MacWood's idea of research and analysis.

Where did I refer to the relation as Flynn's father-in-law?  A complete fabrication and another in a long line of examples of Mortimer Snerd's distortions and deceptions.  More fiction from the dummy himself.  At least the writers of Harlequin Romances know they are writing fiction.  Tom MacWood's Mortimer Snerd can't tell the difference.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2008, 08:04:13 AM »
Tom - why DID you re-ask this question after you got your answer in 2002?

Dan
I got the answer in 2001? From who and what was the answer?

Tom - http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,11983.0.html

wsmorrison

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2008, 08:33:09 AM »
Findlay is a very good possibility, in fact he took the entire Merion crew with him to redesign another nearby course in 1913. But as far as I know Findlay had no connection to Merion or Macdonald, how did they end up in Philly. In an article Findlay does referrence Pickering being involved in Atlanta, and all three of the courses in Atlanta were Barker projects. I think Barker is another possibility.

Tom,

Do you know who made up "the Merion crew?"

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2008, 09:02:54 AM »
My guess is that the influences to Flynn's architecture were similar to those of Tom Fazio, Robert Trent Jones, and heck even Tom Doak.  Most likely those influences are based upon his likes and dislikes of courses that he played and visited, it may also have been influence by those individuals that he met with earlier in his life and probably evolved over the years from various experiences that he had.  Going into deeper specifics as far as Flynn is concerned will be difficult and would probably involve some major speculation. 

Life experiences tend to weigh heavily on the actions of an individual.  I'm sure there are people right now researching ship logs to see if and potentially when Flynn traveled overseas.  Although there are exceptions, Flynn's daughter (and this is the case in most families) has a pretty good idea of the story of her Father's life.

I would bet that being around the early construction of Merion had a huge influence.  I'm going to look and see if I've seen any pictures of Hartwellsville because the one thing that does interest me is if and how much his philosophies evolved from Hartwellsville to courses he did after being involved with the construction of Merion. 

As far as Findlay goes, and I am assuming we are talking about Alex Findlay in this case, but having played enough of Findlay's work (and growing up playing a well preserved Findlay) it's difficult for me to see any influence on Flynn other than getting him to try something different. 

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2008, 09:11:09 AM »
It seems to me one can point to a number of individuals and events that influenced Flynn.

1. First growing up near Wollaston GC, where he was introduced to the game as a caddie.

2. Living next door to the pro at Wollaston and his numerous sons; I suspect those circumstances contributed to Flynn become such a fine golfer as a youth.

3. His sister marrying Fred Pickering - who was a local greenkeeper.

4. Being able to observe first hand the complete overhaul of Wollaston in 1908-09, worked carried out by his brother-in-law most likely to the plans of Findlay or Ross and to observe the construction of the new Belmont Springs in 1909, carried out by Pickering to plan by Ross. Belmont was a very high profile design and I suspect this had the most impact. Ross was quite active in Boston and would have been good person to model oneself after. In 1909 Flynn made the decision to make golf his profession.

5. Working for Seymour Dunn as a young golf professional. Dunn was both pro and golf architect (like Ross and Findlay), and his Lake Placid design was very well respected - Pickering was involved in the construction of this course as well.

At some point Flynn changed course from golf pro to golf course construction person, I reckon it was around 1910 or 1911, right before he and Pickering went to Philadelphia.

As far as Flynn traveling abroad. It is interesting to note Findlay made a tour of Ireland and Great Britain in 1908, studying the great courses (including Ross's Dornoch). In 1910 Ross made a similar tour, and in 1912 Hugh Wilson made his tour.  



Tom,

If you already knew all of that why didn't you just inform us in your first post on this thread?

The term "tabloid journalism" is probably inappropriate although tales of architectural suicide and gay lovers is probably not too germane to golf courses.   

Instead, it's more "gotcha journalism".   

It's a waste of everyone's time and beneath you.   You started this thread with a lot of information and purported to ask simple innocent questions, yet again in an effort to make Wayne and or Tom look misinformed or ignorant.   It has to stop.

I do understand your frustration but it's unhealthy for everyone to carry personal vendettas.

I know you guys thought you had the Holy Grail with the Macdonald stuff about Merion, but neither of you could be blamed for thinking the letter had some great import when it was just general agronomic advice, and thinking the Francis Land Swap included all of the triangle and therefore had to happen in 1910.   That was my first inclindation after seeing your evidence, as well.   Mistakes happen. 

It was a really great research effort that caused everyone to dig deeper and I believe the great thing is that the history of the opening of the "new" course at Merion is now much more accurately known to a detail level.   For that I believe David (and you) deserve credit.

However, once that theory blew up, then it became some effort to elevate Herbert Barker, although it is clear that whatever routing he produced for Merion went nowhere.   It also seems we found that most of his work was "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon" for a variety of disparate geographical clients, and it also seems that almost none of his work existed by June 1910, or long thereafter.   His contributions to early architecture are in the Willie Dunn and Willie Tucker genre...interesting, but certainly not worthy of elevation.

Failing those two efforts, it seems that now we're just left with a frontal attack on the research done on William Flynn.   This baiting is really beneath you, no matter the personal animositites.

If I were Wayne and a member of any related club, I'd completely disengage at this point.   There is no way that what you are doing here is being helpful to Wayne, to the club, or to GCA, and I think you need to examine your motives.

This has got to end.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 09:26:03 AM by MikeCirba »

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2008, 10:52:26 AM »
Mike
Its not gotcha journalism, its called accurate journalism vs inaccurate journalism. You may not have problem with inaccurate information, as illustrated by your inability to let the Merion legend go, but most people prefer the facts over fiction. Mistakes do happen, see Merion's history, the question is are we going to see a repeat with the Flynn biography.

What makes your legend clinging most disturbing is the desperate lengths you will go to trash respected architects along the way, like CB Macdonald, HJ Whigham and HH Barker. Your most recent example being your characterization of Barker's work as 18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon. The only thing you've proved is that you have never played Mayfield, Columbia, Rumson, Westhampton or any of his other original designs. Speaking of examining motives.

As far as Crump's suicide is concerned, it was more than germaine to the story of his life and the creation and completion of PV. And the only two people I'm aware of who have said anything about gay lovers is you and TE. It has been a favorite topic for both of you....giggling like two school boys. Leeds personal relationship with the green committee chairman I think is germain, especially when you consider Leeds was more or less given carte blanche at Myopia.

The only personal vendettas I'm aware was TE's towards me. You are quite familar with that one. IMO personal vendettas are a waste of time and only result in the facts getting distorted or missed all together, as a result the person conducting the vendetta looks foolish. My focus is and has always been on finding the truth.

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2008, 11:02:51 AM »
Dan
I've read it. No one seemed to know the answer or have any specific info on Flynn, unless I missed something.

Wayne
I assume Pickering and Flynn were part of the Merion crew, beyond them I don't know.

Where did I mention anything about a father-in-law. I was questioning your claim that Flynn's wife was a member the prominent Boston Gardner family, not only on GCA, but also in your article in the magazine Golf Architecture (V.10).


Adam
Are you certain Flynn designed Heartwellville?

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2008, 12:27:03 PM »
Mike
Its not gotcha journalism, its called accurate journalism vs inaccurate journalism. You may not have problem with inaccurate information, as illustrated by your inability to let the Merion legend go, but most people prefer the facts over fiction. Mistakes do happen, see Merion's history, the question is are we going to see a repeat with the Flynn biography.

What makes your legend clinging most disturbing is the desperate lengths you will go to trash respected architects along the way, like CB Macdonald, HJ Whigham and HH Barker. Your most recent example being your characterization of Barker's work as 18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon. The only thing you've proved is that you have never played Mayfield, Columbia, Rumson, Westhampton or any of his other original designs. Speaking of examining motives.


Tom,

You're simply mistaken.   

The "Merion legend" as you call it has been proven to be accurate, except Wilson travelled in 1912 and not 1911.   We don't know if he travelled abroad prior.

We also now know that the Merion Committee developed 5 new plans for their golfing grounds after returning from a 2-day visit to NGLA in early spring 1911.   The first day/night at Southampton they spent going over drawings of Macdonald's of famous courses and the second they toured NGLA.

M&W visited in the first part of April and helped them pick the best of their five plans. 

This is EXACTLY what Alan Wilson meant when he said that "Macdonald & Whigham, those two great sportmen....advised as to our planS."

Based on that determination, appropriate additional land purchases, including the Francis Land Swap subsequently took place in short order.

Someday you can read all about it in the USGA archives, and perhaps even view copies of the source documents, but that's what happened.

Continuing to tell people that the course was designed by M&W, and/or Herbert Barker is simply erroneous.   Someday, you and David will perhaps realize that, but for now, I've said my last word on the subject, and I suspect others have as well.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 12:29:18 PM by MikeCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2008, 12:49:24 PM »
Where did I refer to the relation as Flynn's father-in-law?  A complete fabrication and another in a long line of examples of Mortimer Snerd's distortions and deceptions.  More fiction from the dummy himself.  At least the writers of Harlequin Romances know they are writing fiction.  Tom MacWood's Mortimer Snerd can't tell the difference.

Wayne, 

You said, "It just so happens that a member of her family helped create the golf course at TCC."  Now, whether you were referring to her father or her Aunt Millie, you and Tom Paul apparently were just waxing romantically, and building up a legend about something about which you hadn't bothered to check out.    Nonetheless, I apologize for misstating your misrepresentation.  I know your misrepresentations are very important to you, and in the future I'll try to be more careful and accurate when referencing the false information that you try to pass off as fact. 

Here is what you and TEPaul had to say about the issue:

WM:  William Flynn (of Milton, MA) was married to a Gardner, one of the most prominent families in Boston.  It would not surprise me that his wife's family were of the same family tree.  Fascinating that a young Irish-American lad of working-class parents married into that family.  I guess being captain of the Milton HS golf, basketball, baseball and football teams made the Boston Brahman lass swoon a bit.


TP:    You're right there about the Gardners of Boston. It definitely took me by surprise when Connie L told us her mother was a Gardner and she traced her American roots back to the Mayflower. That's pretty much a dead giveaway that it's the same family tree. Believe me if you're part of the whole Mayflower Society thing they check your family history with a fine-toothed comb. The Gardners are a really big generational Boston family though, but it is totally Old Boston. I went to school up there with a guy called Peabody (Peabo) Gardner and that's the name that sort of the filters through the family's American history.

WM: . . . You don't want to hear about connections among the small world of the movers and shakers in the early 1900s.  That doesn't mean there isn't anything interesting there including the marriage of a working class Irishman with an upper crust elite Boston Brahman debutante.  It just so happens that a member of her family helped create the golf course at TCC.  Several decades later her husband significantly remodeled and designed holes for TCC. . . .


__________________________________________________________


The "Merion legend" as you call it has been proven to be accurate, except Wilson travelled in 1912 and not 1911.   We don't know if he travelled abroad prior.

We also now know that the Merion Committee developed 5 new plans for their golfing grounds after returning from a 2-day visit to NGLA in early spring 1911.   The first day/night at Southampton they spent going over drawings of Macdonald's of famous courses and the second they toured NGLA.

M&W visited in the first part of April and helped them pick the best of their five plans. 

This is EXACTLY what Alan Wilson meant when he said that "Macdonald & Whigham, those two great sportmen....advised as to our planS."

Based on that determination, appropriate additional land purchases, including the Francis Land Swap subsequently took place in short order.

Someday you can read all about it in the USGA archives, and perhaps even view copies of the source documents, but that's what happened.

Continuing to tell people that the course was designed by M&W, and/or Herbert Barker is simply erroneous.   Someday, you and David will perhaps realize that, but for now, I've said my last word on the subject, and I suspect others have as well.

Mike,

First, that is just Wayne's and TEPaul's romanticized but as of yet unsupported version of Merion's history.   Your wholehearted endorsement nonetheless, I think we ought to actually look at the support before we close the book on Merion's history.   Obviously there is much more to the story that they desperately do not want to get out, else it would be out. 

Second, your version differs in important details from earlier versions that TEPaul has set out, thus confirming that the loose interpretation is ongoing.

Third, and most importantly, the version you just set out is entirely inconsistent with Merion's history as commonly understood by you and everyone else before my essay.   I don't recall the you, Wayne, Merion, TEPaul or anyone else ever mentioning that Macdonald helped them design the course and that he was ultimately responsible for choosing the final routing.   

As I recall it, you and others always argued that Macdonald was nothing but a glorified travel agent, and that if there was anything beyond that, then Merion politely listened to what he had to say and then went about the business if ignoring him.

If Bill Coore inspected a site, then spent two days explaining to his associates what he thought should be done on the property, then pursuant to his advice his associates came up with five different possibilities and then he had the final say on the routing, would you really claim that Bill Coore was not involved in designing the course.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 12:56:00 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2008, 01:14:25 PM »
David,

The Merion committee were not working for Macdonald.  Your Bill Coore modern day architectural firm analogy is inapplicable, incorrect and out of context.

I did say prior that you and Tom deserve credit for the details of the story becoming clearer although M&W's advising the Merion committee had forever been part of the history of the club as gratefully noted by Hugh + Alan Wilson, Robert Lesley, and Tillie in the very beginning.

M+W didn't layout the course and they weren't the architects of Merion.

Let's please move on.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 08:41:40 PM by MikeCirba »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2008, 01:28:03 PM »
Wow....................

How about them Yankees?  ???


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt