William Flynn's influences

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael Dugger,

I absolutely hear you there.   I just re-read the similiar 2001 thread and it was refreshing to recall cooperative discussion on some of these matters.

I just know it's not anywhere near one-sided.  

I do agree with you that I wish it would simply end in some form of detente instead of mutually assured destruction.

[Thomas MacWood]

Michael
I thought Ed Bakers post was the most informative...where he speculated what courses may have been a possible influence, but there was no direct tie or ties established. So I would say no, that tread was not completely satisifying. I was hoping there might be some additional info seven years later.

[Michael Dugger]

Michael Dugger,

I absolutely hear you there.   I just re-read the similiar 2001 thread and it was refreshing to recall cooperative discussion on some of these matters.

I just know it's not anywhere near one-sided.  

I do agree with you that I wish it would simply end in some form of detente instead of mutually assured destruction.

Thanks for that, Mike.  I thought the same thing upon peaking in on that old thread.  People simply answered questions and gave opinions, sans attitude.  

[Michael Dugger]

Michael
I thought Ed Bakers post was the most informative...where he speculated what courses may have been a possible influence, but there was no direct tie or ties established. So I would say no, that tread was not completely satisifying. I was hoping there might be some additional info seven years later.

Fair enough.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

I am sorry you missed my point.

In order to understand the influences on a golf course architect, don't you need an accurate understanding of his portfolio of golf courses?   If someone disregards some of that portfolio, wouldn't an analysis of possible influences be incomplete or possibly erroneous?

It is not at all a bizarre question.  Nor is it defensive in any way.  In fact, it is relevant.  However, it is certainly one you refuse to answer.

Wayne
I don't follow you. Who designed or did not design Merion has no bearing on Flynn's influences. Dornoch was a major influence on Ross. Arguments about who did what at Aronomink, or some other course, has no effect on Dornoch's influence on Ross.

[wsmorrison]

I disagree with you, Tom. 

Much of how we can interpret influences (it isn't exact science) on an architect has to come from studying their work on the ground and the work they played or studied.  You do not think so.  Yet you yourself asked which courses Flynn played as a youth.  We have some idea, since he was one of the better juniors in the district, so we know where he played tournament golf.  Tony Pioppi helped me quite a bit with that study, though it isn't in the dated version of my manuscript that you have.  We also know he lived nearby and caddied at the original Wollaston.  Feel free to consider that course as influential.  I think the more you study Flynn, the more you realize how creative and original he was while also learning from a number of friends and fellow architects.  Isn't that true of almost all architects?

If you start to get a handle on Dornoch influencing Ross but do not consider Ross's work, what is the point?  If you don't know what is Wilson or Flynn at Merion East, how are you supposed to figure out which direction the influence runs?  We don't have tape recordings or transcripts of sessions when Flynn and Wilson were together, or Flynn might have had with Crump, or Thomas, or Tillinghast or Alison.  Without direct records, the method of determining influences is derivative.   

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
One golf course design (or redesign in this case, in collaboration with another) does not make or break an architect like Flynn.

Some architects tell us what were their infleunces. Guy Campbell wrote that the Old Course (where he grew up) and Sunningdale (where he was a member and observed Colt's remodelling work) had the biggest influence upon him. Other architects give us hints, like Simpson's comments about Woking and St. Andrews and Hoylake. Others, we don't have much to go on, and have to investigate where they played their early golf (like Wollaston), who they were associated with and who directly affected their careers (like Pickering and Wilson). 

All artists, no matter how original or creative, have influences that impacted their designs. And in most cases successful artists have more than one influence. No doubt Dornoch was a major influence on Ross, but so did his collaboration with Colt. I think a comparison pre- and post-Colt may show that.

In my view one of the most important duties of a biographer is to thoroughly explore the background of the given subject in order to discover what were his or her influences. If you have no interest in what influenced that person, then why write about them in the first place? And if you approach the process with the idea you don't believe its possible to discover the influences, you sure as hell will never uncover them.

Analyzing history is not an exact science...it involves making subjective and hopefully well-educated judgments.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Tom.  Of course one golf course (in collaboration or otherwise---I doubt Flynn was collaborating with Wilson 9 years after he died) does not make or break an architect.  But why not get the story straight?  If I were you, I would try getting who designed what correct before you bother with their influences.  You guys ought to get facts right before your interpretations start.  How's that for constructive criticism.  I've heard yours, now you've heard mine.  Let's go our separate ways, shall we?  Anyway, as one of Tom Paul's associates, I thought you swore off any help.  I guess criticism doesn't fall under that directive.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I believe you are minimizing the impact a course like Merion had on Flynn when you say rather dismissively that "one course design (or redesign in this case, in collaboration with another)..."

Flynn was at Merion working on that course (and the West course) for five years, and was extremely instrumental in helping shape and implement the changes that were implemented for the course to get it ready for the 1916 US Amateur.   Contemporaneous news articles of the time mentioned exactly how lucky the club was to have a guy as knowledgeable as Flynn.

He basically spent five years at Merion as training for his career as an architect, working at Hugh Wilson's side.

This had to be incredibly influential.

It wasn't until around 1916 that Flynn started doing original designs (not counting Hartwellsville), after five years at Merion.  (correct me if that is incorrect, but that's what I'm recalling).

He then worked with Wilson for the next 8 years, implementing a number of other changes for the 1924 amateur, including the extensive re-routing that took place for holes 10, 11, 12, & 13.

If a dozen years working with Hugh Wilson wasn't the most influential part of his formative career, I'm not sure what would be?

Of course, as Wayne points out, Flynn came back for another decade after that and did additional changes to the Merion course on his own.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne/Mike
If you would like to discuss who designed Merion you should probably start a separate thread. That subject has been discussed often and I think everyone has gotten their full.

I'm trying to discover something new about Flynn's influences (not Wilson's) and if Flynn traveled to the UK. Any thoughts?

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne/Mike
If you would like to discuss who designed Merion you should probably start a separate thread. That subject has been discussed often and I think everyone has gotten their full.

I'm trying to discover something new about Flynn's influences (not Wilson's) and if Flynn traveled to the UK. Any thoughts?

Tom,

I don't know if Flynn travelled abroad.   It seems unusual that he wouldn't but perhaps he soaked up enough between Boston and Merion to form a solid foundation.

Have you ever come across anything that looked like Flynn in the shipping manifests?

[Bradley Anderson]

This is a very interesting question.

I would guess that he was probably influenced by the courses that he played on.

Marion would have certainly had an influence on him, as he helped Wilson build it. Or did he?

Sometimes I think we may allow for influences from sources that are not even necessarily related to golf. I mean this may sound silly, but if he had read much Thoreau that could have had an influence onhim, for he seemed to really love showcasing nature in how he shaped things. Those kinds of values don't necessarily come from relational influences, they can come from within and even from the way one is raised.

Did he ever write or state what his chief influences were?

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
I have not come across anything regarding Flynn's travels overseas.

Bradley
Are you referring to Kittansett? Marion was built by George Thomas. Flynn was 33 years old when Kittansett was built, and was some years after his early experience at Merion and I believe his involvement at PVGC.

Wayne
I just took a quick glance at your early version of the Flynn book and there is no mention of his Irish background or his parents roots. Did you address that in your more recent version? Was Flynn an Irish Catholic?

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Yes, I did address this in a more recent version.  I don't know what version you have, but it is probably several years old.  It is obviously incomplete and should be regarded as such. 

[DMoriarty]

This is a very interesting question.

I would guess that he was probably influenced by the courses that he played on.

Marion would have certainly had an influence on him, as he helped Wilson build it. Or did he?

Sometimes I think we may allow for influences from sources that are not even necessarily related to golf. I mean this may sound silly, but if he had read much Thoreau that could have had an influence onhim, for he seemed to really love showcasing nature in how he shaped things. Those kinds of values don't necessarily come from relational influences, they can come from within and even from the way one is raised.

Did he ever write or state what his chief influences were?

Bradley,

I think you meant Merion.   Marion is a different course.    As for the possibility of outside influences impacting these architects it is hard to imagine that this is not the case.   After all these men were not insulated from the world around them, and there were a few overlapping and related movements going on at the time that had a great appreciation for nature and natural beauty. 

Have you read Tom MacWood's IMO on the Arts and Crafts Movement?  If not, you may find it interesting.

_______________________________

David,

Who do YOU think William Flynn's influences were?   You've studied this issue as much as anyone.   Certainly you have an opinion that is worth hearing here.

Or, was this question for Wayne only? 

Did you happen to ask Tommy who he thinks designed Merion?

Mike I have studied Merion but not Flynn in particular.    As for what Tommy thinks about the original design of Merion, could your question/implication be any farther afield from the topic at hand?   Quit the third-hand gossip and innuendo, Mike, it is unproductive.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Did you happen to ask Tommy who he thinks designed Merion?

As for what Tommy thinks about the original design of Merion, could your question/implication be any farther afield from the topic at hand?   Quit the third-hand gossip and innuendo, Mike, it is unproductive.

David,

I think that was simply a direct, straightforward question.   I played Merion with Tommy during his visit a few years back and know well his genuine fondness and sentimentality for the course.

Your answer, or refusal to answer, pretty much answers my question.

In any case, knowing what you do about Flynn's tenure at Merion, as well as his 20+ years of direct involvement there, can you imagine anyplace or anyone else than Hugh Wilson, et.al.  being more influential on Flynn?   

I can't.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Did you happen to ask Tommy who he thinks designed Merion?

As for what Tommy thinks about the original design of Merion, could your question/implication be any farther afield from the topic at hand?   Quit the third-hand gossip and innuendo, Mike, it is unproductive.

David,

I think that was simply a direct, straightforward question.   I played Merion with Tommy during his visit a few years back and know well his genuine fondness and sentimentality for the course.

Your answer, or refusal to answer, pretty much answers my question.

In any case, knowing what you do about Flynn's tenure at Merion, as well as his 20+ years of direct involvement there, can you imagine anyplace or anyone else than Hugh Wilson, et.al.  being more influential on Flynn?   

I can't.

Mike, 

If you think your mistaken belief as to Tommy's opinion on who initially designed Merion is a worthwhile and productive topic, then why don't you start a thread on it?  As far as I can tell, Tommy's opinion (or what you mistakenly believe to be his opinion to be based on gossip) has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.  As for my "non-answer" answering your question, you are delusional.  I don't gossip about my conversations with my friends to try and make rhetorical points on a website, especially with someone with inaccurate, third-hand information and a history of spreading false gossip.  Understand? 

As for your and Wayne's theory about how influential Merion was on Flynn's later work, why not just state your case, instead of demanding me or Tom do it for you?   Demanding others say what you want then to think is not really that productive in a conversation.

[Mike_Cirba]

David today;

As for your and Wayne's theory about how influential Merion was on Flynn's later work, why not just state your case, instead of demanding me or Tom do it for you?   Demanding others say what you want then to think is not really that productive in a conversation.

David two days ago;

Hey Wayne,  why not actually offer something of substance and interest for once, instead of your usual I know more than you do nonsense.

As for Flynn and Merion East, I'd love to hear your justifications, but then that is part of the super-secret Flynn manuscript, isn't it?.   Having looked a bit at the early history of Merion, I'd say your claim sounds very stretched, but I'd be glad to consider them except that you have made the claim on this site without offering any support whatsoever. 

But the question wasn't about Merion, it was about Flynn.   I've some vague ideas, but I don't want you to burst a blood vessel, so I'll just sit back and learn for a while.   After all, that is why I am here.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
What city or town in Ireland did Flynn's father come from?

[wsmorrison]

Sorry, you'll have to rescind your dictate against helping Tom Paul or any of his associates.  If not, why should I answer any of your questions?  I think it preposterous that you even ask.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
Not as preposterous as you not knowing.

[wsmorrison]

So now you know what I know.  And without any evidence at all.  You must really impress yourself.

[Thomas MacWood]

It seems to me one can point to a number of individuals and events that influenced Flynn.

1. First growing up near Wollaston GC, where he was introduced to the game as a caddie.

2. Living next door to the pro at Wollaston and his numerous sons; I suspect those circumstances contributed to Flynn become such a fine golfer as a youth.

3. His sister marrying Fred Pickering - who was a local greenkeeper.

4. Being able to observe first hand the complete overhaul of Wollaston in 1908-09, worked carried out by his brother-in-law most likely to the plans of Findlay or Ross and to observe the construction of the new Belmont Springs in 1909, carried out by Pickering to plan by Ross. Belmont was a very high profile design and I suspect this had the most impact. Ross was quite active in Boston and would have been good person to model oneself after. In 1909 Flynn made the decision to make golf his profession.

5. Working for Seymour Dunn as a young golf professional. Dunn was both pro and golf architect (like Ross and Findlay), and his Lake Placid design was very well respected - Pickering was involved in the construction of this course as well.

At some point Flynn changed course from golf pro to golf course construction person, I reckon it was around 1910 or 1911, right before he and Pickering went to Philadelphia.

As far as Flynn traveling abroad. It is interesting to note Findlay made a tour of Ireland and Great Britain in 1908, studying the great courses (including Ross's Dornoch). In 1910 Ross made a similar tour, and in 1912 Hugh Wilson made his tour.  

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

But not as preposterous as you claiming to know what I know.  We have never met or discussed this.  But why let facts get in the way of your storytelling?  That seems to be your gift.

Wayne
Didn't you say on another thread that Flynn's wife was from the wealthy Gardner family of Boston, who were involved at Myopia. You might want to double check her background.

[wsmorrison]

My sources go well beyond the ancestry.com information you use.  I too have access to that, but went much deeper into the subject matter.  I am confident in my findings, though you cannot possibly know what they are despite your accusations since they have not been disclosed to you. 

I did not say that Flynn's wife was related to the Gardners at Myopia.  I speculated that there might be a relationship and it would not surprise me if there was.  Perhaps you should double check your facts. 

Still, I do not see how the information you seek has any influence at all on Flynn's work in golf architecture.  I cannot help but think you are simply going out of your way to discredit me.  Have at it if it makes you feel better about yourself.  It surely has nothing to do with golf architecture.