William Flynn's influences

[DMoriarty]

Tom Paul,

If it is not a witch hunt, then lets discuss this stuff without the insults and the attacks and the unsupported and baseless criticisms.   No more ad hominem attacks.  And no more playing games with the information.   No more slamming the work of others without offering a thread of support.   Come clean, and lets talk about this stuff.  But I don't want to hear anymore unsupported insults or criticisms. 

Before I came back I asked you and Wayne and others whether you were ready for frank and open discussion, and you assured me that you were.   So lets do it.

Do you have anything substantive to offer with regard to Flynn's early history?  For example, on what factual basis do you believe that his wife was of the Boston Brahmin Gardner family?  You've mentioned the elderly daughter's memory, but do you have any other reason to believe this?

[DMoriarty]

To any who seem to jump immediately to acrimony rather than make any attempt at all to get along I will say to you the same thing that I say to my kids - you can't control your brother, you can only control yourself. No one else is responsible for what you do. No one can MAKE you act like a jerk. You do that on your own. One of the weakest excuses I get from my children when they misbehave is when they say "He MADE me." I'm not buying it.

Kirk, as you may or may not recall, I didn't jump immediately to acrimony but stood taking punches for a long time before I started throwing them back.   I was even helping Wayne in every way possible until he mistakenly concluded he no longer needed my help.  Even still, I am more interested in setting the record straight than throwing insults.   I cannot help it if these guys have put themselves in a position where they must take every new piece of information as a personal slight.

[Thomas MacWood]

I found some additional info which may shed further light on WB Plunkett's Heartwellville course. Plunkett's home course was the 9-hole Forest Park GC in Adams, Mass. The course was originally laid out in 1900. That year Plunkett invited Alex Findlay to Adams to be his guest. Findlay played a 27 hole exhibition with the clubs top three golers (two of the three were Plunkett's sons). Findlay also redesigned the golf course on this visit. From what I understand the course today is pretty much the same as Findlay left it.

Findlay returned to Forest Park in 1902 to play one of the bigger matches in Western Mass history, a head-to-head with Willie Anderson, the defending US Open champ. Anderson won the match.

Based on his long-standing relationship with Plunkett (beginning as early as 1900 on thru at least 1917 when he organized Plucnket's tournament at Kilkare) and the involvement of Pickering (Findlay's right hand man) in the construction of Kilkare, it seems very likely that Findlay designed Kilkare at Heartwellville and not Flynn.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kirk,

I have read much of Whigham's writing, as well, and you're correct that he wasn't a toady.

It's just that if there isn't even a hint of humor, even misdirected humor, in these dire and sobering and legalistic and almost hate-filled threads I think I'm going to have a brain aneurism reading them.

Thank you, though.   You use the Spanish translation program as well as I do and I applaud your multi-culturalism.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I've read that about Findlay and Plunkett as well, and knew about Findlay's work at Forest Park.

However, as you know, Findlay was a world-traveller.   It's seemingly clear he had a golf and friendly relationship with Plunkett, but he was also away from Mass/VT for long stretches.   

Is there anything else that would indicate that Findlay, and not Flynn had designed the course in Hartwelleville?   Also, is it spelled Kilkare?   I can find virtually nothing on it.

I guess what I'm asking is this;

On what basis are you suggesting that Flynn didn't design the course?   It is listed as the first course he ever designed in his 1945 NY Times obituary.

I haven't come across anything that suggests someone else designed it.   Have you?

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
That obituary and C&W's attribution are the two main sources for Flynn designing Kilkare. The source of Cornish's information is Flynn's daughter (I'm not sure if she is the source of the incorrect date too). Often times the family supplies the information for obits as well.

Beyond Flynn's daughter's story there is no direct evidence suggesting Flynn designed the golf course or any golf course during that period of his career. Also there is no evidence that Flynn had any relationship with Plunkett. 

The story has never made sense to me. Why would Plunkett choose a completely inexperienced (no design experience and no construction experience), very young golf pro to design his private golf course, when he had a close relationship with the very experienced Findlay (who had his own dedicated construction man)?

[DMoriarty]

Tom, 

Did Pickering build Kilkare?   

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - Findlay has always interested me.  I used to be a member at a Findlay course (Coatesville in PA) and found it to be quirky fun.  I've considered him the "Johnny Appleseed" of golf in the USA.

[TEPaul]

To mention that Flynn designed Heartwellville as his first course we would probably use C&W and Connie Lagerman as sources in a bibliography.

There was another source that really did come out of the blue and I feel eventually ran a little cold in the end. About three years ago my old friend John Ott (former mayor of Pine Valley) was playing golf at PV with an old friend of his from Vermont. During the round John told his friend from Vermont that Wayne and I were writing a book on William Flynn. His friend was immediately interested and told John he felt he could supply some additional evidence of Flynn's presence with the course at Heartwellville. Within a few days I was emailing with John's Vermont friend and as I recall he produced a Vermont periodical explaining the old course at Heartwellville and Flynn's presence. I recall the source for that Vermont periodical was a lady who either lived in or operated a store that was in a building in Heartwellville that originally served as the clubhouse of the old Heartwellville course. John's friend from Vermont claimed he had spoken with this lady in the past about the old course and Flynn and he claimed she said she had a plan of the course by Flynn. I told him that would be a remarkable find but that for our purposes as conclusive proof it would basically have to have Flynn's name on it and it would need to match what the course was. He actually took the time to go to Heartwellville (I think he lived a town or two away) and speak to her again but unfortunately she could not find the plan she had referred to. I believe I recall that this lady had basically lived in this building almost her entire life.

We probably would have included this course of events in a bibliography but with a note that nothing actual was produced (such as a plan with Flynn's name on it). If we ever took the time to go to Heartwellville and interview this lady the question certainly would be asked if she had any familiarity with golf courses or architects or architecture and if not if she had ever spoken to Geoffrey Cornish, Ron Whitten, Connie Lagerman or anyone else about Flynn and Heartwellville. If she said she'd never talked to anyone who might have informed her about Flynn and Heartwellville our assumption would be she must have been looking at something at some point on her own to lead her to that conclusion. But if she produced nothing, whatever she was referring to about Flynn and Heartwellville's old course would remain a mystery.

[TEPaul]

We also certainly know that Flynn developed a very close relationship with Pickering  The obvious question is both when and how it originally developed.    

Furthermore, I'm getting a bit tired of hearing this weak logic that some architect could not have done a golf course because he was too inexperienced.   

People who promote that logic are pretty much forgetting that even architects who become famous also need to start somewhere at some point! 

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom, 

Did Pickering build Kilkare?   

Yes. Pickering was in charge of construction at Kilkare.

[TEPaul]

If Fred Pickering really was Alex Findlay's right-hand man and Merion hired Pickering as their foreman on Merion East and West, one really does wonder, doesn't one, WHY Merion also apparently never considered hiring Findlay to design those courses. Do you think maybe it had something to do with the fact that they were just really, really into the concept of the "amateur/sportsman" designer, as they said? 

In my opinion, to not fully understand the significance of this and what it meant to this fascinating era is to basically not understand that era at all.   

[DMoriarty]

If Fred Pickering really was Alex Findlay's right-hand man and Merion hired Pickering as their foreman on Merion East and West, one really does wonder, doesn't one, WHY Merion also apparently never considered hiring Findlay to design those courses. Do you think maybe it had something to do with the fact that they were just really, really into the concept of the "amateur/sportsman" designer, as they said? 

In my opinion, to not fully understand the significance of this and what it meant to this fascinating era is to basically not understand that era at all.   

Didn't you say on the other thread that you don't think Pickering was involved at Merion in the initial period from Spring through September 1911?   If so, then he came along after the course had been designed and built, which would explain why Findlay was not part of the equation, wouldn't it?

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - or, maybe the guys at Merion saw Findlay's work and knew they could do better?   Seeing how successful Fownes was at Oakmont, wouldn't they have wanted to turn to one of their own?

[TEPaul]

"Didn't you say on the other thread that you don't think Pickering was involved at Merion in the initial period from Spring through September 1911?   If so, then he came along after the course had been designed and built, which would explain why Findlay was not part of the equation, wouldn't it?"


Definitely! That and the board meeting minutes also explain who actually designed the golf course too and it wasn't Barker or Macdonald and Whigam, that's for sure. What MacDonald/Whigam did is "advise" on architectural principles and such, for which the club gave them and recorded rather extensive thanks towards them. This is the history of Merion East and it's accurate. Perhaps, it is time, after almost five years of arguing over whatever the hell it is you argue over, you begin to get with reality and get with the program, Skeebo!   

[TEPaul]

"Tom - or, maybe the guys at Merion saw Findlay's work and knew they could do better?   Seeing how successful Fownes was at Oakmont, wouldn't they have wanted to turn to one of their own?"


Dan:

That's basically what I've been saying for years. Fownes (H.C. and particularly W.C.) may've gotten their attention that way some but I think the ones who really got their attention were probably Herbert Leeds (with Myopia) but mostly Macdonald (with NGLA).  I've said for years the thing that really got MCC's attention with Macdonald is they considered him to be a gentleman "amateur/sportsman" like they were.

I hear a few on here tell me to get over this "amateur/sportsman" schtick. The only reason those few on here say that is because they've got no clue at all what that era was about that way and they have less of a clue what those people were like and what they felt they could do in all kinds of areas.

[DMoriarty]

"Didn't you say on the other thread that you don't think Pickering was involved at Merion in the initial period from Spring through September 1911?   If so, then he came along after the course had been designed and built, which would explain why Findlay was not part of the equation, wouldn't it?"


Definitely! That and the board meeting minutes also explain who actually designed the golf course too and it wasn't Barker or Macdonald and Whigam, that's for sure. What MacDonald/Whigam did is "advise" on architectural principles and such, for which the club gave them and recorded rather extensive thanks towards them. This is the history of Merion East and it's accurate. Perhaps, it is time, after almost five years of arguing over whatever the hell it is you argue over, you begin to get with reality and get with the program, Skeebo!   

Well at least we agree that Findlay's non-involvement is immaterial to your theory.

As for the rest, if the minutes said what you say they say, we'ed have seen them.  Let the minutes speak for themselves.
 

[Thomas MacWood]

Kirk
You are right. Lillian Gardner's economic background really does not impact the story of William Flynn. I think the reason Wayne and TE played up the poor boy marries the rich girl angle (mistakenly) was because they thought it made from an entertaining story.

However I do think it is important to correct the misinformation, one, because obviously you want to be as accurate as possible in telling the story of his life, and two, I think it goes to the reliability of Flynn's daughter's information. I believe she is the source of a lot of the misinformation.

This is the story of Flynn's early career as told by Wayne & TE (from the article on Flynn in Golf Architecture Vol10). Flynn was a great athlete at Milton HS, and they note he played football. This is confirmed in the Boston press, although I'd say he was most accomplished in basketball and golf.

They claim the summer before his senior year (1908), the 17 or 18 years old Flynn taught tennis at Lake Placid. I question this. There is no reference to Flynn ever playing tennis in the Boston papers and in June, July and August there are reports of Flynn playing golf in local events.

After graduating from HS in 1909, Flynn turns down a scholarship from Williams College, amd marries Lillian Gardner on August 3, 1909, and they move to Heartwellville Vt. I don't know anything about Williams, I do know it was reported on June 24, 1909 that Flynn would not be competing in any more amateur events because because he was turning professional. On July 28, 1909 it was reported Flynn was enjoying himself as a professional at Lake Placid Club.

That must have been a short lived position. In 1910 the US census has him back in Milton, with his profession listed as golf teacher, most likely at Wollaston, where his neighbor was the head pro. Lillian Gardner is living with her parents in Milton in 1910 as well. As of yet they were not married or living in Heartwellville.

Wayne & TE claim Flynn designed Kilkare in 1909, right after the newly weds moved there. End of story, next stop Merion. The marriage of Flynn and Gardner was announced in the Boston Globe Oct 8, 1910. Its unclear what was the exact date of the marriage. The Kilkare project did not begin until 1912. Reports mention Pickering was in charge of constructing the course, I have not found a mention of the architect.

[TEPaul]

"Let the minutes speak for themselves."


Halla-fucking-leulah to that Skeebo!

The problem is, you'll probably try to claim that the MCC Executive Committee in 1911 was out to be rude and insulting to you and your "WORK"  .
 

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

When Wayne Morrison sent you that manuscript a few years ago to read it and review it for him did he ask you to put the details of it on this website and debate it and pick it apart all over the world?

I'm thinking he didn't do that and of course he never would.

But yet that's what you are doing now, aren't you? Don't you think anyone and everyone should ask why? Don't you think maybe 95% of the people on here already know why. How the hell much of the obvious self-promoter can you be anyway? I guess another way of asking that is how the hell dumb are you really?

Oh sure, I fully expect you to respond with: "Well, he never actually told me I couldn't put it on here and pick it apart and debate it endlessly all over the Internet." Or else you'll probably go through your horseshit refrain again of: "Well, I'm only after the truth." If you are then why don't you just contact Wayne privately as you were obviously expected to do?

To that all I can say is you're dumber than dumb.

That manuscript he sent you years ago was just a draft and it wasn't for publication, that's for sure. It was to be critiqued privately by a few he trusted then because it's a work in progress and today it's quite different and altered from that early draft you're airing on here. Consider that draft you have completely obsolete. We do!

To me this completely proves you really are a pretty despicable guy who's got either no commonsense or no ethics at all. All you can see is just another way to promote yourself at the expense of others.

You are despicable, Tom MacWood, and this is the most glaring example of it on here by a country mile!

If anyone out there ever had the notion of sharing something privately with Tom MacWood I would most definitely advise you to reconsider that now and in the future. If most on here don't even get this basic situation it will also explain why Wayne Morrison has become real disappointed and disallusioned with this website.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
As I stated in my post, the information about Flynn's early life came from the article in the magazine Golf Architecture Vol.10. That article came out last summer. Have you read it?

[Mike_Cirba]

See, this is what I don't get at all.

If I knew someone here...even an aquaintance much less a friend...was writing a book or professional paper and I believed I had information that was contrary to what that person was about to publish, I think I'd contact them privately with the information.

This is the kind of stuff that I was warned privately about when you guys came back on this site.   I was told then that it was an attempt to publicly embarrass Wayne and Tom Paul, and I raised a ruckus which I later apologized publicly for once David assured me that I was given incorrect, prejudiced information and convinced me of the innocence of his intentions.

Yet, despite those assurances, here we stand again...I can't for the life of me understand why the attempt to make someone look bad here who has devoted years of research to William Flynn and his golf courses and who has been enormously generous in sharing all of his research and findings with each of the clubs and courses involved, not to mention to private individuals, professionals, and basically everyone here.

If this is about getting to the truth, why the public airing?  Wayne Morrison's book isn't even published yet, but here we have Tom MacWood and David Moriarty trying to publicly refute it by finding errors in what amounts to minutae when one considers the scope and breadth of the book and FLynn's career.

My advice to everyone trying to determine what is happening here is simply this;   don't listen to what people say...watch what they do.

This is ridiculous.

[TEPaul]

"TE
As I stated in my post, the information about Flynn's early life came from the article in the magazine Golf Architecture Vol.10. That article came out last summer. Have you read it?"


Well, isn't that just wonderful, Tom MacWood?

We don't own the exclusive rights to the life and times of William Flynn, that's for damn sure, so if you want to research the hell out of the guy, then knock your soxes off doing it. I'm sure we'll all be thrilled for you but why don't you just shitcan this transparent gig of yours of constantly trying to prove Wayne Morrison wrong with a four year old draft that he gave you to review privately? Anyone on here can tell you do that just to try to promote yourself as a researcher at the expense of others including clubs and practically anyone else you can think of.

In my book that all adds up to showing pretty clearly how unethnical and frankly despicable you really are. This pattern of yours is getting longer and longer, no matter what your latest weak excuse for it might be.

[DMoriarty]

"Let the minutes speak for themselves."


Halla-fucking-leulah to that Skeebo!

The problem is, you'll probably try to claim that the MCC Executive Committee in 1911 was out to be rude and insulting to you and your "WORK"  .
 

So does this mean that you are planning to let the MCC records speak for themselves? Terrific.  When?

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Your post #146 is right on the money---right on the money. You've said this before and it's the truth. These two jokers are up to nothing less than exactly that. This place has been completely cantankerous since they both came back on here around April or so. Before that things were just fine. Tom MacWood has even created some thread saying he'd like to leave again and David Moriarty has said he'd go along with that. Why don't they then?

Moriarty will probably tell us the only reason he stays on here is to defend himself and his "WORK"   from us. Why us? He put that essay out on here and his most important audience----eg Merion itself, read the thing. Their take on it was it was total garbage. We didn't write it, and we weren't even informed of anything about it before it appeared on here. He wrote it and now he will just have to deal with the reaction to it by people other than us.