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Thomas MacWood

William Flynn's influences
« on: August 10, 2008, 01:10:30 AM »
What were and who were Flynn's influences?

Did he travel overseas?


wsmorrison

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2008, 07:01:19 AM »
It should be obvious to all expert researchers.  Which William Flynn courses have you studied in person?

Yes, but only to one country, according to Flynn's daughter.  Cuba.   What do you make of that?

What influence do you think Flynn had on golf architecture and architects?  Your protege doesn't give any credit for design or redesign work at Merion East.  Do you agree with him? 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 07:25:29 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2008, 08:00:48 AM »
I've heard Gil Hanse say that Flynn is his most inspirational Golden Age architect.

Perhaps looking at the question the 'backwards' could help answer Tom's question.

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2008, 08:39:32 AM »
Wayne
Flynn's daughter has been wrong before. She thought Flynn's father, her grandfather, died when Flynn was a boy. He did not.

Speaking of proteges...do you consider Pickering Flynn's mentor?

Flynn's parents were from N.Ireland, Pickering (his brother in law) was from England, Hugh Wilson travelled overseas, aren't the odds good he travelled to the UK? Did he serve in WWI?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 09:02:15 AM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2008, 02:42:32 PM »
It should be obvious to all expert researchers.  Which William Flynn courses have you studied in person?

Yes, but only to one country, according to Flynn's daughter.  Cuba.   What do you make of that?

What influence do you think Flynn had on golf architecture and architects?  Your protege doesn't give any credit for design or redesign work at Merion East.  Do you agree with him? 

Hey Wayne,  why not actually offer something of substance and interest for once, instead of your usual I know more than you do nonsense.

As for Flynn and Merion East, I'd love to hear your justifications, but then that is part of the super-secret Flynn manuscript, isn't it?.   Having looked a bit at the early history of Merion, I'd say your claim sounds very stretched, but I'd be glad to consider them except that you have made the claim on this site without offering any support whatsoever. 

As far as I know Flynn flipped the dogleg on No. 1, slightly moved the 2nd green, and extended the back of the 14th.  This is hardly what I would call a "redesign"of the course as a whole, much less the "design" of the course.  I imagine that you try to credit Flynn with the changes in the early 20s but a number of individuals in a position to know state that Wilson was responsible for these changes.   Surely you aren't substituting your judgment for theirs, are you? 

But the question wasn't about Merion, it was about Flynn.   I've some vague ideas, but I don't want you to burst a blood vessel, so I'll just sit back and learn for a while.   After all, that is why I am here.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2008, 02:52:08 PM »
 ???
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 02:54:26 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2008, 03:02:44 PM »
Pathetic. 

The beat goes on. 

Ran really must step in and fix this problem because it's fucking embarrassing how childish this little Macwood/Moriarty vs Paul/Morrison rivalry has become.

Nice response, Wayne, obviously you have not let bygones be bygones. :P ::)

Grow up or get out
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 03:04:28 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2008, 03:08:51 PM »
Michael Dugger,

I don't see what about Wayne's response you find objectionable?

I see it as once again an attempt to make Wayne's research look somehow questionable, suspect, or erroneous.

Exactly WHO isn't letting bygones be bygones??

WHO is trying to goad Wayne into yet another Merion related issue??
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 03:13:54 PM by MikeCirba »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2008, 03:16:24 PM »
Michael Dugger,

I don't see what about Wayne's response you find objectionable?

I see it as once again an attempt to make Wayne's research look somehow questionable, suspect, or erroneous.

Exactly WHO isn't letting bygones be bygones??

Whatever, Mike, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But in doing so, I will not go around "sniping" every new thread you start. 

Essentially, Wayne and Tom are waging a campaign in which the only resolution would be for Macwood to leave the site again.

Because EVERY SINGLE thread Macwood starts ends up in the muck because these men are on a mission to undermine him. 

Are you telling me you see it another way???  Because that's bogus.  It's personal, it's been personal between these guys for about 4 months now. 

Nobody around here gives a damn, though.  It's embarrassing.  They should get together somewhere in the sand barrens of New Jersey, beat the hell outta each other, and get on with life.....
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2008, 03:19:14 PM »
Michael,

Are you seriously telling me that Tom MacWood is simply out of the blue, just on a whim, purely a innocent notion just deciding yesterday to start a purely academic, purely curious thread on William Flynn after the last several years of acrimony and back-biting around Merion, Flynn, Wayne, Tom Paul, et.al.??

You're kidding me, yes?

wsmorrison

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2008, 03:22:22 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Flynn's daughter has been wrong before.  As have all of us.  Your protege more than all of us combined.

Speaking of proteges, why don't you answer my question about your protege's notion that Flynn did zero design or redesign work (to any extent) at Merion?  I'd appreciate an answer before fielding your subsequent questions.  However, no, I do not consider Pickering to be Flynn's mentor.  Do any courses Pickering was associated with have a look and design anything remotely like Flynn?

Why don't you just tell me what the ship manifests have to say and then I'll know for sure.  I have no doubts that you are trying to set something up in that manner.  Flynn's daughter was emphatic that he did not travel overseas except to Cuba for vacations with his wife.  For now, I'll take her word for it.  If you find out otherwise and use that to discredit me, so be it.  I don't care.

Yes, Flynn served in WWI.  He left his position at Merion CC and worked at Bethlehem Steel.  Shall I try to locate his punch cards for you?

Mortimer Snerd,

Go back in the steamer trunk.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2008, 03:24:12 PM »
Michael,

Are you seriously telling me that Tom MacWood is simply out of the blue, just on a whim, purely a innocent notion just deciding yesterday to start a purely academic, purely curious thread on William Flynn after the last several years of acrimony and back-biting around Merion, Flynn, Wayne, Tom Paul, et.al.??

You're kidding me, yes?


Mike,

So you think Macwood is starting threads like this to purposefully irritate and antagonize Morrison and Paul???

If he is, it's certainly working!!!!

I do believe, however, that if he started a thread on a course Wayne and Tom know nothing about, they'd still come in and take some pop shots regarding his research methods, lack of integrity, etc etc etc......

If Macwood started a thread on basket weaving, these guys would drag that into the mire as well!!!

I don't really care who needs to cut it out.  All I know is it is embarrassing for all parties involved and an utter waste of bandwidth.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 03:25:48 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2008, 03:27:48 PM »
Michael Dugger,

I don't see what about Wayne's response you find objectionable?

I see it as once again an attempt to make Wayne's research look somehow questionable, suspect, or erroneous.

Exactly WHO isn't letting bygones be bygones??

Mike.  Here we go again.  More third-hand gossip.  I have spoken to Tommy Naccarato.   Yesterday, most recently.   I told him that this was all ridiculous and needed to stop.  I told the same thing to Wayne when he telephoned me last month.  I also and I told him how I thought this should end, and and asked him for any ideas.  That was the last I heard from him. 

Why don't you let people speak for themselves?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

wsmorrison

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2008, 03:29:00 PM »
Michael Dugger,

I think you are reading the situation incorrectly.  

Regardless, if you don't like the threads, don't read them.  

How would you answer MacWood's questions?  He certainly doesn't reply to mine.  I asked him which courses he's seen by Flynn and he doesn't answer.  I asked him if he believes what his protege thinks about zero redesign or design work by Flynn at Merion East.  He did not answer.  Since when has he shown any interest in anything I've had to say about any subject matter?  He baits and attempts to belittle.  As for his protege, he is not worthy of any consideration whatsoever.  

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2008, 03:31:18 PM »
Mike,

So you think Macwood is starting threads like this to purposefully irritate and antagonize Morrison and Paul???

If he is, it's certainly working!!!!


Michael,

The first post is completely open-ended questions.

Wayne responds briefly and Tom provides counter-evidence of everything from Flynn's daughters memories of her father to World War I service.

Please tell me what that has to do with William Flynn's architecture, his design methodologies, or his golf courses?

It's simply meant to make Wayne's research look erroneous or incomplete.  
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 03:36:07 PM by MikeCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2008, 03:33:29 PM »
Mike Cirba,

It sounds to me like you are saying that some of us cannot post on certain aspects of golf course architecture. 

Wayne,

Your question about me and Merion had nothing to do with the topic.   Surely Tom is allowed to choose his own topics, isn't he?   Or is it your charge to tell him what the thread is about?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2008, 03:35:34 PM »
David,

Who do YOU think William Flynn's influences were?   You've studied this issue as much as anyone.   Certainly you have an opinion that is worth hearing here.

Or, was this question for Wayne only?  ::)

Did you happen to ask Tommy who he thinks designed Merion?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 03:37:23 PM by MikeCirba »

Peter Pallotta

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2008, 03:47:29 PM »
This question might sidetrack this, but maybe not.

What does "influence" mean in this context, with architects from this period in general and with Flynn in particular?

What I mean is, with construction techniques and agronomy issues and questions of engineering not yet fully hashed out back then (true? or at least not by everyone?), does 'influence' mean something different than it would today?

Today, I imagine we only use the word to refer to stylistic and conceptual 'content', i.e. to the design style and to the philosophy of design (say, how MacKenzie-inspired ideals are influential) that one architect picks up from a predecessor.

But back then, would the 'influence' have been felt as much in terms of the buts and bolts of putting a course in the ground as it would WHAT was being put on the ground?

Peter

Mike_Cirba

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2008, 03:59:11 PM »
To seriously attempt to answer this question, I would say that Hugh Wilson and the Merion Committee had preeminent early influence on William Flynn's design philosophy.   

Flynn spent a dozen years working with Wilson until the latter's death.   

As far as the extent of that philosophy, I think Alan Wilson said it much better than I can;

" We should also be grateful to this committee because they did not as is so often the case deface the landscape. They wisely utilized the natural hazards wherever possible, markedly on the third hole, which Mr. Alison (see below as to identity—W.R.P.) thought the best green he had seen in America, the fourth, fifth, the seventh, the ninth, the eleventh, the sixteenth, the seventeenth, and the eighteenth. We know the bunkering is all artificial but most of it fits into the surrounding landscape so well and has so natural a look that it seems as if many of the bunkers might have been formed by erosion, either wind or water and this of course is the artistic result which should be gotten."

"   The most difficult problem for the Construction Committee however, was to try to build a golf course which would be fun for the ordinary golfer to play and at the same time make it really exacting test of golf for the best players. Anyone can build a hard course---all you need is length and severe bunkering—but it may be and often is dull as ditch water for the good player and poison for the poor. Unfortunately, many such courses exist. It is also easy to build a course which will amuse the average player but which affords poor sport for players of ability. The course which offers optional methods of play, which constantly tempts you to take a present risk in hope of securing a future advantage, which encourages fine play and the use of brains as well as brawn and which is a real test for the best and yet is pleasant and interesting for all, is the “Rara avis”, and this most difficult of golfing combinations they succeeded in obtaining, particularly the East course, to a very marked degree. Its continued popularity with the rank and file golfers proves that it is fun for them to play, while the results of three National, numbers of state and lesser championships, Lesley Cup matches, and other competitions, show that as a test of golf it cannot be trifled with by even the world’s best players. It is difficult to say just why this should be so for on analysis the course is not found to be over long, it is not heavily bunkered, it is not tricky, and blind holes are fortunately absent. I think the secret is that it is eternally sound; it is not bunkered to catch weak shots but to encourage fine ones, yet if a man indulges in bad play he is quite sure to find himself paying the penalty."


I think that sums up much of William Flynn's design philosophy and influences quite nicely.

Unless he happened to serve with HH Barker in the 21st artillery regiment in 1915 in Florence, in which case I would argue that Barker snuck into Flynn's pup tent one night and filled Flynn's empty head with the wisdom of the ages.

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2008, 04:04:26 PM »
Mike
Completely open-ended questions? Is there something wrong with an open-ended question, afterall this is a descusion group? By the way - 'did he travel overseas' - is not an open-ended question.

It should be obvious to all expert researchers.  Which William Flynn courses have you studied in person?

It should be obvious to all expert researchers? What does that mean? What kind of answer is that? Are we prohibited from asking questions about Flynn unless we've played certain number of courses - bizarre. (By the way I've played Pepper Pike, CC Cleveland, Elyria, Shinnecock, Kittansett, Cascades and Cherry Hills, for whatever its worth)

Yes, but only to one country, according to Flynn's daughter.  Cuba.   What do you make of that?

I simply stated Flynn's daughter has been mistaken before, afterall she is 86 years old. He may have travelled abroad before she was born or while she was quite young. That combined with the fact that his parents were Irish imigrants, his mentor came from England, and his other mentor traveled to the UK to study golf courses leads one to wonder if she may be mistaken again.

Also I'm curious if he served overseas during WWI...is that bating Wayne?


What influence do you think Flynn had on golf architecture and architects?  Your protege doesn't give any credit for design or redesign work at Merion East.  Do you agree with him? 

Protege? Credit for the design of Merion East? What does that have to do with my questions? Another bizarre response IMO...especially from a person acknowledged as a Flynn expert. I wouldn't think an expert would react so defensively.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 04:33:12 PM by Tom MacWood »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2008, 04:05:02 PM »
Please check out http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,11983.0.html for a duplicate thread started by Tom in 2001.  It has good info that could help answer the question about Mr. Flynn's influences.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2008, 04:13:35 PM »
It should be obvious to all expert researchers.

Am I the only one who thinks this comment reeks of sarcasm?

Which William Flynn courses have you studied in person?

Ah, the old Mucci standard.   ::)

Listen, I'm out of this discussion, or rather lackthereof. 

All I am saying is some of you ought to be embarrassed with how you've handled yourself over all this Merion/Crump/PV/Flynn disagreement. 

I just don't get it.  It's only golf!!!  It just blows me away how seriously some of you have taken this stuff.  I only wish this kinda crap was the biggest thing I had to worry about in my life.

At the end of the day whether it was Wilson or Crump who designed Merion and blah blah blah blah......we are talking about golf here!!!!  It's not like an important part of history is being rewritten. 

We are not questioning whether it really was Einstein who layed out the theory of relativity.  Macwood is not questioning whether man really did walk on the moon. 

To me, the truth of whether or not Saddam did have WMD's is an argument worth researching, worth fighting, worth getting passionate about, worth freaking cussing over!!!

Not this crap. 
   
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Thomas MacWood

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2008, 04:19:11 PM »
Do you think Wilson's trip abroad had an influence on his architecture? If so, would a similar trip abroad have influenced Flynn? I would think...if it could be established.

I'm also curious what golf courses Flynn played as a boy and young man in Boston. Do you know what courses he played?

It also appears the seeds of his career in golf course maintenance and constrution, and eventually golf course architecture, were planted by his brother-in-law, but I've seen very little discussion on that. Do you think Pickering was a major influence?




Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2008, 04:19:20 PM »
Please check out http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,11983.0.html for a duplicate thread started by Tom in 2001.  It has good info that could help answer the question about Mr. Flynn's influences.
Interesting.....

What say you, Tom Macwood?  Did you not get enough data on that thread or have you forgotten about it?

I'd be upset to learn you really are trying to "make trouble."  As convinced I am Morrison and Paul will follow you to the ends of the earth to disparage your character, I am equally inclined to think you know when some topics are going to rile them up.....and may do it on purpose to rattle their cages.

You all should just leave the site if you cannot control yourselves.....

And don't go giving me this "if you don't like it don't read the threads" stuff, Wayne.  

The problem is often times there is some good, educational stuff in these threads.  But wading through the personal attacks to get to it is almost unbearable.    

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

wsmorrison

Re: William Flynn's influences
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2008, 04:20:38 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I am sorry you missed my point.

In order to understand the influences on a golf course architect, don't you need an accurate understanding of his portfolio of golf courses?   If someone disregards some of that portfolio, wouldn't an analysis of possible influences be incomplete or possibly erroneous?

It is not at all a bizarre question.  Nor is it defensive in any way.  In fact, it is relevant.  However, it is certainly one you refuse to answer.