Old Town (Pictures)

[Dunlop_White]

See the difference? These are our bunkers at Hole 12 today.

See how the size, the shape, and the entire look are all different, but please also note how the original tied-in to the green whereas today's rendition does not. This is typical throughout the course.

[JC Urbina]

Dunlop
Does the club have pictures of every hole?

[Dunlop_White]

What a place, really enjoyed the greens.  Started to understand the Maxwell rolls after walking the course.  Would go back in a flash if I was in the area.

Jim,

You and/or Tom Doak are welcome any time. When I called Yonce, you guys were at Yeamans Hall just the other day. That is "in the area", isn't it? Glad to hear that the Double Plateau green at Hole 1 will be tweaked a bit.

Yes, I have pics of most holes at Old Town-- and a very revealing aerial photo. Chime in when you get to Bandon Dunes.

[Dunlop_White]

Here are others. Hole 14 in 1939 versus Hole 14 in 2006.

[Ed Oden]

Dunlop, the old photo of #14 is interesting.  It appears to show the area behind the green maintained as fairway.  But I can't quite make that match with the way the course is today.  Did some re-routing occur?  Thanks in advance!

Ed

[Dunlop_White]

No re-routing has occurred, just over-planting and overgrowth! In the distant background, what you see is Hole 17 fairway, Hole 7 fairway, and Hole 4 fairway crossing the photo. Today, these fairways are plugged by tree plantings. Furthermore, overgrown evergreens surround Hole 14 green.

While some tree management has occurred over the last decade, we have much more to do!

[Ed Oden]

I see it now.  Is that actually #7 green up in the top right corner?

[Dunlop_White]

Yes! And if you squint, you'll realize that those bunkers are also not the little ovals that we have today.

[Sean_A]

The views across the course off the back off #14 are incredible.  It look like with a slight breakup using some trees, that 4, 7 & 17 are essentially a shared fairway of massive width.  That must be over 200 yards of width from the full turn of 4 at the top thru 17 fairway at the near side.

Ciao

[Dunlop_White]

You are right! Check out the 1940 aerial below. There were very few trees, if any, that broke up this sweeping landscape. In the 1970's and 80's, a lot of maple plantings were plugged-in between the holes.

[Ed Oden]

That's amazing.  Hard to believe how open 5 and 6 were.

[Sean_A]

I can't get over how magnificent that aerial is.  The view from just short of 5 green down to 8/17 green needs to be seen again!  I also notice there aren't really any trees to speak of near the water so there must have been lovely views downhill from the 10th fairway.

Dunlop, what are you doing jabbering to us?  Get on with the tree removal!

Ciao

[Dunlop_White]

There are just a few more volunteers in the creek left -- thereby restoring the views in the heart of the golf course. It's the secondary plantings outside the woodland stands that must go next.  Not only are these species -- maples -- a poor choice for golf courses -- with their surface roots and geometric structure -- they were typically plugged in as singles, instead of in groupings with other species.

[BCrosby]

Ed - Many thanks for the pics.

I always hate to quibble about a very good course, but why not remove the trees from behind the 6th green? It seems an obvious, easy improvement to me. The approach into that green would become much more frightening. And interesting.

Are those trees Maxwell's idea?

Bob

[Dunlop_White]

Sean,

These pics from 1939, 2001, and 2009 will help you see the evolution here.

[Dunlop_White]

Here is a view of Hole 4 green from Hole 13 fairway -- across the fescue, across the creek that has been de-treed, on across Hole 17 and Hole 7, located about half a mile away.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

These pics from 1939, 2001, and 2009 will help you see the evolution here.

Dunlop

Its wonderful to see the area round the creek cleared. It looks like you are cutting back the low brush as well.  A question, it looks like there was a wee tributary to the creek in front of #12(?).  I don't recall that being there a few years ago.  Although, in the 2009 pic it looks like there could be mini stream heading between the trees in the lower right portion of the photo. 

The bunkering for that green also looks radically different.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

I assure you that the sixth green you pictured has a plateau in front and then falls away to the back half of the green.

The only other green I had seen like that before was the 13th at Crystal Downs ... and that's when I became a believer that most of the back nine at Crystal Downs is Maxwell's work, rather than MacKenzie's.

[Dunlop_White]

I always hate to quibble about a very good course, but why not remove the trees from behind the 6th green? It seems an obvious, easy improvement to me. The approach into that green would become much more frightening. And interesting. Are those trees Maxwell's idea?

Bob Crosby,

Yes, these trees still serve as a backdrop to Hole 6 green. And no, they are not original. They were planted in the 1960's with hundreds of others. An old aerial photo below shows when they were just miniature saplings. (see upper right hand portion of the photo below for these plantings)

Yes, we are all of the opinion that Hole 6 would look much much better without the trees - promoting intimidation and depth perception challenges that fall-away greens naturally invoke. However, there are some safety concerns from Hole 5 tee that are holding us back now. Hooked shots sometimes hit these trees.

There is always the argument that if the trees were gone, it would create a visual awareness -- opening the "sight lines" back-and-forth between the groups on Hole 6 green and Hole 5 tee -- whereby they can use their judgement whether it's appropriate to hit or not.  Either group could wait a few minutes before proceeding.

Plus, we don't have a lot of play, so the chances that the two groups at these locations simultaneously is minimal.

Then, of course, we could always remind golfers on Hole 5 tee with a little sign saying "Tee away after green clears" or "Give way to those on six green" or simply "Fore left!" This would be a nice little quirk -- and really no different than all the great courses that have "reminders" asking golfers to "ring the bell when finished" on blind shots for safety purposes. (a la National Golf Links of America/Upper Cascades at the Homestead).

[Dunlop_White]

Here is a pic of Hole 6 with the fall-away green that Tom Doak was describing. See also the backdrop of trees -- immediately behind the green -- that Bob Crosby was asking about. Someone once said -- that without those trees, it would look like you had to land the shot on the hood of a car. The hole would be much more visually intimidating without them. The green would look like it was on the edge of the earth.

[Dunlop_White]

The bunkering for that green (Hole 12) also looks radically different.

Ciao

Yes Sean, our bunkers today are "radically different". Today, our bunkers look too small, too round, and too taylored and upholstered with cleanly cut edges.....compared to Maxwell's versions 70 years ago.

What courses today have bunkers that resemble Maxwell's originals at Old Town? Where's a good sample of these?

[Sean_A]

The bunkering for that green (Hole 12) also looks radically different.

Ciao

Sean,

Yes, our bunkers today are "radically different". Today, our bunkers look too small, too round, and too taylored and upholstered with cleanly cut edges.....compared to Maxwell's versions 70 years ago.

What course today has bunkers that resemble Maxwell's originals at Old Town? Where's a good sample of these?

Dunlop

I can see how the bunkering was altered.  Perhaps the addition of trees helped usher in this newer more "contained" look as the old bunkering is much more suited to open vistas/landscapes.  The bunkers themselves are "open" looking to me - almost like waste areas which fit into more open landscapes.  The strange is that from the pix you show, the new bunkers a placed the same as the old.  Do you have an photo of #2? 

If you are looking for similar bunkering to the old OTC, I would seek out more waste area bunkering. 

Also, what about that wee creek in front of 12 green?  Is that still there?

Ciao

[BCrosby]

Sean:

.... I became a believer that most of the back nine at Crystal Downs is Maxwell's work, rather than MacKenzie's.

Interesting. Makes sense. And answers some questions I had about the course. 

Bob

[Kye Goalby]

Current WFU coach Jerry Haas, current Nike Golf bigwig Mark Thaxton, Chris Kite, Billy Andrade, to be joined in 1985 by Len Mattiace, Tim Straub (Davidson coach) and Barry Fabyan, and in 1986 by Tony Mollica.  There were other players, too, but those are the main ones.

Ronald,

 As a member of the WFU team in 82-86 I  am offended to be classified as an "other".     I should be an other with a capital "O"!



What I remember mostly about Old Town in those years was how difficult it was to chip around the greens.  We played a lot in the  months when the bermuda was dormant ( it was "common" variety  bermuda in those days) and it was  so tough to chip to those greens off the bare/thin lies that were prevalent  at that time.  #10 being so small and perched was especially tough.  I remember a lot of 6's there.

Breaking par was pretty rare for anyone on the team then  (for me par was about 77!)  At the time I don't remember anyone thinking how "cool" the greens were, it was more like !@$#@!ng greens.   

Funny, but I also remember Billy Andrade seeming to get up and down from everywhere....


Dunlop,

Those are really awesome vintage photos of the course and it is great you are trying to bring some of that back.  There is a lot of amazing stuff in that aerial, but one thing that stands out (besides the lack of trees)  is the water  on 15, it looks like the stream was widened and held back with the green closer to the water.  I don't remember water ever coming into play or even being a thought on that hole.  If I am seeing correctly in the aerial, that hole was quite a bit more thought provoking then.   Am I correct that this hole is a bit different or was it just too many visits to the "Safari Room and  Ziggy's  back then drowning my memory??

[Dunlop_White]

Dunlop,

Those are really awesome vintage photos of the course and it is great you are trying to bring some of that back.  There is a lot of amazing stuff in that aerial, but one thing that stands out (besides the lack of trees)  is the water  on 15, it looks like the stream was widened and held back with the green closer to the water.  I don't remember water ever coming into play or even being a thought on that hole.  If I am seeing correctly in the aerial, that hole was quite a bit more thought provoking then.   Am I correct that this hole is a bit different or was it just too many visits to the "Safari Room and  Ziggy's  back then drowning my memory??

Kye,

We have a treasure trove of historical information. It's amazing that you could recognize from the aerial that Hole 15 may need restoring in addition to other features. (tree removal, fescues, bunker restoration, and Hole 6). Great observation!

You are right -- water was a major factor on Hole 15 originally. Check out these vintage photos below. This pond was silted in sometime in the early 60's with the development of Whitaker Park upstream (near the Safari Room and Ziggys). Now a creek runs parallel left to the hole.

Heard that you were shaping bunkers for Tom Doak and Jim Urbina nowadays. That's great. Look me up when you visit next. The course has improved a lot since the mid-80's.