Old Town (Pictures)

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Ed, Hey Dunlop:

Thanks for inviting me on this thread.  I've never been to OT and only know what I see here, but to answer the q you asked about what I think of the bunkering, here is just a visceral reaction form what I see.

I think I like the simple circles better here, rather than the more modern "noses" look.  Holes where I really liked what I saw were 2 (we saw that at SH!), 5,8,

Notice how many of the greens are benched.  Is 5 that template that clouser likes where you go straight, then turn 90 degrees and play downhill, or is that somewhere else?

I like the bunkerless surrounds of 13.  14 looks awesome. 

[Kye Goalby]

Heard that you were shaping bunkers for Tom Doak and Jim Urbina nowadays. That's great. Look me up when you visit next. The course has improved a lot since the mid-80's.

Dunlop,

I was considering stopping in Winston  as part of my Unemployment 2009 Tour and having a chance to see more of  those photos you have may pull me in that direction.

And yeah, I have done a good deal shaping work for Tom Doak over the last 10 years, and often even a  little bit more than bunkers.   I learned a lot from Tom and from all the guys that work for him including Brian Schneider, Brian Slawnik, Eric Iverson, Don Placek, Bruce Hepner and Jim Urbina.   Hopefully someday there will be another opportunity!

 As for those photos of 15, they really show an amazingly different  and much more  interesting 15th hole!  Kind of a more dramatic and difficult version of 16 at Augusta, and a few decades preceding Augusta's.  That would be really cool if you could bring that back along with some renovation/restoration.

I was at Old Town for the Wake Pro Am in about 2000 and remember being stunned by some of the changes ot the bunkers.    Stepping on #2 tee I did not know whether  to laugh or cry at the ring of circles around the green.  Things were a lot rougher in the 80's, but I much preferred the look then.


The other hole that really stood out was 7.  The tee shot when we were in school was pretty intimidating over the big mess of bunker in front of the fairway, especially into the wind.

 The bunkers now are really out of scale and visually generic. I know the tee shots go further today and the bunkers may not come into play for the college kids anymore, but If you could get the bunkers to return to a look in tune with your early photos I think those two holes  (if done right) would be great examples of  how  the original visual style of bunker  really affects the psychological impact of playing the holes.  Plus,  it would look so much better!

[Dunlop_White]

Kye Goalby,

Here's Hole 15 as it looks today (top photo). And here's Hole 15 as it would look if we ever reinstated the water.(bottom photo) I agree that it would be a much more interesting hole.

[Dunlop_White]

in about 2000 I remember being stunned by some of the changes ot the bunkers.    Stepping on #2 tee I did not know whether  to laugh or cry at the ring of circles around the green.  The bunkers now are really out of scale and visually generic. I know the tee shots go further today and the bunkers may not come into play for the college kids anymore, but If you could get the bunkers to return to a look in tune with your early photos I think those two holes  (if done right) would be great examples of  how  the original visual style of bunker  really affects the psychological impact of playing the holes.  Plus,  it would look so much better!

It's very interesting to hear shapers and architects today describe how they create bunkers that span an entire landform. Those with jagged, eroded looking edges, like Maxwell originally envisioned at Old Town. But it's also the surrounds that help create the artistry -- with those eyebrows of browning fescues and broomsedge -- the cool season grasses -- that are intermixed.  This is what what makes it all visually pop out at the golfer in my opinion.

[David_Madison]

Dunlop,

It's incredible how many layers of improvements are possible at Old Town. When you think you're done with a given hole, when you think you've got it all right, you see all kinds of additional potential. Whether it's tree clearing, carefully placing a variety of native grasses, bunker work, or water hazard redefining, there never seems to be an end to how far you can take the course. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another course that's already so good having that many possibilities for undeniable enhancement without getting into a pure tinkering/preference mode. And I can't think of a better steward to see all this through over time.

David

[Ed Oden]

Dunlop, the photoshop image of #15 makes for a visually appealing picture.  While I love the look, the hole is almost 250 yards.  It doesn't need the pond to be a beast.  Wouldn't reinstating the pond actually restrict the ability to use the ground game?

Ed

[Dunlop_White]

Ed,

The pond fronting Hole 15 green is not my idea. It was Perry Maxwell's! See the aerial photo and the 1939 photos of the hole under construction. While I'm a big fan of promoting the ground game, (through topdressing fairways, irrigation controls etc.), evidently Maxwell never intended for the ground game to prevail on this par 3.

If restored, Hole 15 would once again require a full aerial carry of varying distances, depending on your ability. For more accomplished amateurs, a full carry from 213 yards is not a problem. Same goes for the Wake Forest Golf Team from 245 yards out.

The only golfers interested in the ground game on this hole would be the seniors and the ladies, whose tee boxes have always been offset to the right of the water. See photo! The ball will bounce into the green for them, if needed.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Dunlop,

Been away lately, catching up.

Great job on the continuing tree removal!  How does it look on #8 and between #8 & #17?  I though the trees on those areas could go from a few years ago.  I also agree on removing the trees behind #6.  Safety seems to be the issue, but the course doesn't get that much play.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Old Town has the most sidehill lies of any course I can remember, off the top of my head.  Also, has several tiny greens.

Bill Coore is interested in doing a bunker reno/restoration?  Just give me tingles thinking about that.  Might there be some greens recapture, too?  Would likely make Old Town the solid #2 course in the state, well ahead of #3.  Isn't Coore a Wake Forest alum, who even played on the freshman golf team?     He's no hack in several areas.

[David_Madison]

Dunlop,

Bill Coore is interested in doing a bunker reno/restoration?  Just give me tingles thinking about that.  Might there be some greens recapture, too?  Would likely make Old Town the solid #2 course in the state, well ahead of #3. 

Scott,

At the risk of starting a whole new debate, I've always thought that Old Town had the best greens complexes in the state. Sure the bunkers lacked something, and a restoration would only enhance that. While Pinehurst #2 is known for its great complexes, and I wouldn't argue any of that, I believe that OTC's complexes are far more varied and offer a greater variety of short game challenges. When its greens are fast and firm, which is almost always, the internal contouring and run-offs going every which way require a huge amount of thought and creativity to successfully manage.

[Dunlop_White]

Bill Coore is interested in doing a bunker reno/restoration?  Just give me tingles thinking about that.  Might there be some greens recapture, too?  Would likely make Old Town the solid #2 course in the state, well ahead of #3. 

Scott,

According to Bill Coore, because there is so much (too much) distance between the greenside bunkers and the fillpad, a bunker restoration can be performed without having to redo the greens. Coore explained this situation to me and our superintendent, O'Neil Crouch that the expansion of these bunkers will also help integrate the entire green site and put it back to scale visually.

While I cannot be positive what type of bunkers the Bunker Hill boys and Jeff bradley may restore here, I did give it a shot below. I transposed some of their bunkers from another course in Photoshop and brushed them into the Old Town photo below, just as I did with recapturing the water on Hole 15.

What do you think?

[Kye Goalby]

Dunlop,

If you are trying to get your bunkers back to what they were in those early photos I think Bill Coore (and his guys) would be one of the few  in the business who would get it really right.  Nice to know he has been involved.   He and the guys that work with him all have the passion and the appreciation for the little details that really make a bunker something resembling  a work of art, as opposed to a hole in the ground filled with sand.  To get bunkers more like your old pictures takes a bit more time to do right, as well as real understanding of the goal and a willingness to be meticulous and hands on when edging.  Something The C and C guys obviously do marvelously, and from my experience, it is not something done real well when machines and low bids are in play for the sake of "efficiency".

As for your photoshop picture, it is pretty cool, but I would bet Bill Coore would not do bunkers like that at Old Town.

From what I know, his respect for Perry Maxwell and Old Town would lead to bunkers more akin to the old photos you have posted (if the goal were restoration) not bunkers like Sand Hills or even what Dave Axland and he did at Prairie Dunes.  

I think the bunkers would be more akin to a combination of what they did at Cuscowilla and Brook Hollow (both also  bermuda courses).   My guess  is the bunkers would likely be a bit more stylized and formal than what you show, while still having a much more random three dimensional edge than what is there now.  I also think, where appropriate,  in locations with tall grasses as a backdrop, there would be a few rugged, naturalized looking bunkers (more like your photoshop bunker) using native backing that would be very unique and memorable.

Just my opinion as probably the only other former Wake golf team member who has actually ever  built a bunch of bunkers  - and Arnie does not count!

[Ronald Montesano]

Ahh, those 1980s Wake golfers...always a smart bunch...Thaxton, Kite, Haas, Andrade, Goalby and the list goes on.

[Kye Goalby]

Ahh, those 1980s Wake golfers...always a smart bunch...Thaxton, Kite, Haas, Andrade, Goalby and the list goes on.

Ronald,

I guarantee there are no members of the Deans list up there!   But at least the the other guys you listed could really play!   My lousy golf and lousy study habits are probably why I ended up building so many bunkers.

[Dunlop_White]

Kye,

Great post! Thanks! As an alternative, I will throw this example out -- since it is US Open week.

Throughout Bethpage Black, tall stalks of brown ornamental grasses, emerge like whiskers in separate individual clusters, from the bunker surrounds. It gives these bunkers both dimension and visual presence. It reminds me of the broomsedge in the original bunker pics at Old Town. Does anyone know what type of ornamental grass or blue stems this is? And how it is established and maintained? With the addition of some artistic edges, this would be very close to the original look.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Dunlop,

While I like the C&C bunkering on the 8 courses of theirs that I've played (not all are 'hairy'), and I think it would look nice at OTC, I agree with Kye that they'd more likely make it look like the old pics, which is just fine.

Interesting pic of Bethpage, in that they have the ornamental grasses around the fairway bunkers of #4, but not the greenside bunkers.

Ronald,

Kite?  I know that's not Tom you're referring to.

[Kye Goalby]

Scott,

Not trying to steal Ronald's question, but the "Kite" being referred to was Chris Kite, no relation to Tom. He was a really good player (great ball striker) who was runner up in the '86 US Am to Buddy Alexander, I think he lost 4 and 3.  He never made it on Tour, but not because he did not have the game.

If anyone has ever read Barbarians at the Gate, about Ross Johnson and KKR buying RJR Nabisco,  Chris has a bit of a notorious mention in that. How a 22 year old Wake Forest golfer is part of that tale of ego, greed and LBO's is another story.....

[Dunlop_White]

My guess  is the bunkers would likely be a bit more stylized and formal than what you show, while still having a much more random three dimensional edge than what is there now.  I also think, where appropriate,  in locations with tall grasses as a backdrop, there would be a few rugged, naturalized looking bunkers (more like your photoshop bunker) using native backing that would be very unique and memorable.

OK Kye, I photoshopped the bunkers on the hole that needs it the most!

[Dunlop_White]

Here are the changes above.

1. The 1939 aerial shows five (5) greenside bunkers, not seven (7).

2. These features are now integrated with one another as all five bunkers have been nudged toward the putting surface. There's some distance and disconnection between the bunkers and the greens today.

3. Finally, I attempted to emulate the rustic Maxwell style at Old Town, that C & C does so well. This is a much better look than the non-desrcript ovals that repeat around the green.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

I had the great pleasure of playing OTC yesterday.  It had been over 10 years since my last visit, and man is it good now.  Its definitely my favorite in NC, and in my all-time top 5.  The course is in perfect shape (greens are a tad slow, but thats to be expected in the hot Triad summers), and the fescue they've added really improves the aesthetics.  My playing partners all loved the course and commented on how it feels like you're playing at an old estate.  Actually, it was the old Reynolda estate, and they've done a good job of preserving the aura despite having a vibrant membership.

As a follow-up to the commentary of the 15th hole.  I don't know if you'd want a fronting pond.  The hole is 245 yards from the back.  It would be damn-near impossible with a pond down the left.

[Ronald Montesano]

I have not been able to make a comment of this sort regarding any other thread, but the addition of Kye Goalby, veteran of the Saf Room and Ziggy's wars, to Dunlop White's perspective makes this thread unbreakable.  In Goalby, you have a true player (not just anyone made Wake's varsity in the 1980s) with an architectural perspective.  In White, you have a champion of the course, the course's history and the architect.  In other words, this is a special thread.

Old Town is a beguiling track that will catch you off guard at some point and make you regret your misplaced attention.  During my brief tryout for Wake's varsity (Thanks, Coach) in 1983, it only caught me off guard on holes 1-10.  By then, I was numb, out of the running, and too stunned to understand the value of the course I was playing.

I did not remember the ring of bunkers on #2, the short par three, but they do certainly look like dippin' dots, flying saucers, or some other galactic conflagaration.  I like Dunlop's suggested roughies.

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Funny, Ronald... the coach during my 4 years wouldn't allow try-outs.  Very undemocratic don't you think?  I would have loved the opportunity to underwhelm him with my talents.

To continue the analysis, I'm very fond of:  numbers 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, and 18.

[Carl Nichols]

A few months ago I started a thread asking people to name the courses they appreciate more because of GCA.  My list included five courses I had heard of but hadn't played, and the greatness of which I certainly wouldn't have appreciated absent GCA.  Old Town, particularly with the work being done right now, clearly belongs in that top 5 list.  Looks really cool.

[Ronald Montesano]

Carl,
The piece of land is so appropriate for golf.  The first three holes sit atop a rise with the clubhouse and are somewhat separate from the rest of the course.  The remaining fifteen play below this trio in a variety of ways.  The double green shared by (If memory serves) 8 and 17 sits just over the creek that meanders through the lower part of the course.  In fact, if it weren't so redundant, 9 and 18 could share a double green, so close together are their respective terminuses (termini?)  With the exception of 9 and 18, both of which run due south, no other holes run directly in one direction.  I don't know if this adds to the quality of the rumpled nature of the course or is a mere coincidence.

So many of the details are lost through time, but I would not hesitate one second to travel to Winston to play a round or twelve over this fine track.

[Ed Oden]

Dunlop, looking back through my Old Town pics, I noticed how far the greenside bunker on #13 is from the green...



Has the green shrunk that much?  

Ed