What Classic Era Courses That Have Never Held A Major...

[Thomas MacWood]

In 1939-41, the Brook Hollow Golf Club in Dallas, Texas, changed their putting surfaces from Bermuda to bent grass for that very reason.

Despite being considered the sternest of test's andprobably the best course in Texas for many, many years it never got one. Most surprising considering the number of USGA Executive Committee members who have been members there over the years.

Today it is that rarest of golf courses that could open it's doors this afternoon to host the U.S. Women's Open (too short for a men's) and the ONLY work needed done would be the putting up of the ropes! It is in fabulous condition. I just visited it a 10 days ago and the putting surfaces were about a 9 & 1/2 and lush... and that was after 20 straight days of 100+ degree temperatures!

Phil
What year did they take out all the bunkers or the majority of them?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

They actually ADDED bunkers through the mid-30's!

Bunker removal began around then and was accelerated by Ralph Plummer in the '50's.

The bunker work done by Coore & Crenshaw in the mid-90's in an effort to return the course back to it's Tillinghast roots look wonderful and fit the course very well.

[Thomas MacWood]

Phil
Unfortunately C&C were not able to restore the very bold bunkering scheme....I believe the reason given were all the trees. I reckong the original course was nearly treeless.

Did Tilly suggest the removal of the bunkers during his PGA-bunker-removing tour?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Although there a great number of trees have been added to the course over the years, and the club maintains a well-thought out, golf course architect-developed long term Arbor Program, C&C did restore a good number of fairway bunkers. There actually is room for more of them to be returned, but the course really doesn't need them.

The course has evolved from one that could truly be viewed as the Pine Valley of Texas because of both course quality and massive use of sand to what is today a lovely parkland course that works quite well as one.

Tilly visited the course in January 1936 during his PGA Tour and recommended the redesign of the 9th & 13th greens... both of which had been changed in-house earlier in the 1930's.

Not only would these be redesigned, but all 18 greens would be in 1937-38 by... Perry Maxwell! He would be retained by the club to oversee the transformation of the putting surfaces from Bermuda to bent grass from late 1938 to 1940.

The architectural pedigree of the course is as follows:
Tillinghast (1920-24 & 1936)
Maxwell (1937-40)
Ralph Plummer (1954-1956 & early 1960's)
Plummer & Byron Nelson (1964-67)
Jay Morrish (1983-85)
Ed Etchells with the Nicklaus Group (1981-1986... yes, at the same time that Jay Morrish was there!)
Coore & Crenshaw (1992 to present day)
Geoffrey Cornish (1994-95)

[Phil McDade]

Wayne:

I've long thought that Langford/Moreau's Lawsonia could legitimately host a US Women's Open. It can play 6,853 from the tips at a par of 72 (with five par 5s), very similar to this year's Interlachen (6789 yds, par 73, five par 5s). Very good greens, unusual architecture, terrific mix of holes that can be attacked and those that would be tough pars. Get the green speeds up to USGA standards, and it would be a very good course for a women's major.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

Although there a great number of trees have been added to the course over the years, and the club maintains a well-thought out, golf course architect-developed long term Arbor Program, C&C did restore a good number of fairway bunkers. There actually is room for more of them to be returned, but the course really doesn't need them.

The course has evolved from one that could truly be viewed as the Pine Valley of Texas because of both course quality and massive use of sand to what is today a lovely parkland course that works quite well as one.

Tilly visited the course in January 1936 during his PGA Tour and recommended the redesign of the 9th & 13th greens... both of which had been changed in-house earlier in the 1930's.

Not only would these be redesigned, but all 18 greens would be in 1937-38 by... Perry Maxwell! He would be retained by the club to oversee the transformation of the putting surfaces from Bermuda to bent grass from late 1938 to 1940.

The architectural pedigree of the course is as follows:
Tillinghast (1920-24 & 1936)
Maxwell (1937-40)
Ralph Plummer (1954-1956 & early 1960's)
Plummer & Byron Nelson (1964-67)
Jay Morrish (1983-85)
Ed Etchells with the Nicklaus Group (1981-1986... yes, at the same time that Jay Morrish was there!)
Coore & Crenshaw (1992 to present day)
Geoffrey Cornish (1994-95)

Phil
Were a large number of the bunkers already gone when Tilly visited in 1936? I'd guess there were 150 to 200 bunkers on the golf course originally when it was built (if it were possible to count them all, since some of them just melded into each other), many of which would be classified as duffers headaches based upon Tilly's 1936 definition. It would be somewhat surprising if he did not recommend their removal.

[Ronald Montesano]

Taconic had a USGA Senior Men's in 1996.  With the Hanse revisions, it will be able to extend to somewhere between 6800 and 6900 yards.  It's definitely long enough for everything but an Am, a Publinks and an Open.  It would be a fabulous site for a Walker or a Curtis Cup, I think.

[Dan Herrmann]

Waverley in Portland has held the Boy's AM.  Too short for a men's major, but I think it could certainly hold a Women's Open.

That is if they want a major.  From what I remember, their membership was very happy having things they way they were.

Architect is Jack Moffett, course built in 1896.

[Ronald Montesano]

Let's remember that Herrmann's stomping grounds had a USGA PubLinks back in 1962, so Sheridan Park can be taken off the list of "never hosted a biggie."  I would agree that we can delineate between pro majors, USGA amateur events, and other amateur biggies.  Niagara Falls and Point O' Woods, for example, will not host USGA events in lieu of the Porter Cup and the Western Amateur.

[wsmorrison]

I'm sorry Wayne, when I originally read the question I thought it was a good one, but then you deviated began talking about every USGA championship including the boys and girls. There are hell of a lot courses that could host a girls and seniors women am. It appeared to be a creative way for you to talking about Flynn courses. I thought I cut through all the bull crap.

I think you should feel free to answer the question as you like.  If you only want to consider US Opens and US Ams, that's fine by me.  Many classic era courses have not or could not be in the mix of the biggest majors, that is why I expanded the list to include shorter courses.   This was not set up in a creative way or non-creative way to discuss Flynn courses.  I know the Flynn courses well enough to answer my own question.  I did ask about what Flynn was suddenly in the mix, but I also directed the discussions towards all classic era courses.  You may think you cut through all the bull crap, but really you just went out looking for it and found it where it does not exist.  Congratulations, that is talent.

[Adam Sherer]

Maidstone?

Dorset Field Club?

Sleepy Hollow CC?

Eastward Ho!?

[Mike Sweeney]

A US Amateur at Yale and Fishers would be a logistical challenge for the USGA, but they could run a ferry to Fishers from Mystic for the two qualifying days, and if a final match on Sunday came down to the 18th at Yale.........  The US Amateur really does not get that many visitors and Fishers would only have to give up the course for 4-5 days as the qualifying course site.

[Dan Herrmann]

Although it holds a yearly invitational, I'll also pitch Ross' Monroe in Rochester, NY (recently worked on successfully by Hanse).   CCR about 5 miles from Monroe is also outstanding.

[Tim Gavrich]

A US Amateur at Yale and Fishers would be a logistical challenge for the USGA, but they could run a ferry to Fishers from Mystic for the two qualifying days, and if a final match on Sunday came down to the 18th at Yale.........  The US Amateur really does not get that many visitors and Fishers would only have to give up the course for 4-5 days as the qualifying course site.

Such a scenario would be uterly incredible.  I'd beg, borrow, and steal to play in that one. 

[mark chalfant]

Mike and Tim

I regard  New Haven Country club very highly.  To satisfy logisitcal  concerns
Yale and  NHCC  would be a stellar combo for an  Am or Mid Am.   Any thoughts   on that pair ?

[Mike Sweeney]

I regard  New Haven Country club very highly.  To satisfy logisitcal  concerns
Yale and  NHCC  would be a stellar combo for an  Am or Mid Am.   Any thoughts   on that pair ?

Mark,

That has all the romance of a traffic jam on the Merritt Parkway. I am a ferry guy!

Mid-Am would work, but I doubt Yale would give up their course in the fall.

[Gerry B]

if your criteria re majors include the us amatuer as it was included in the original grand slam and also included the us women's open and us senior open but excludes the walker cup / curtis cup  - here a few off the top of my head:

note: correct me if i mentioned one that held one:

cypress point
shoreacres
milwaukee cc
fishers island
seminole
indian creek
pine valley
camargo
fox chapel
quaker ridge
fenway
sleepy hollow
somerset hills
maidstone
NGLA
bel air
LACC
valley club
huntingdon valley
lehigh
allegheny
yeamans hall
cc of charleston
essex in nj and massachusetts
franklin hills
crystal downs
kittansett
eastward ho
country club of fairfield
deepdale
The Lido - had to sneak that one in
glen echo - unless you count the olympics
MPCC Dunes
philly cricket flourtown - they played the 2 opens on a different course
sunnehana
lookout mountain
meadow club
pasatiempo
southampton
rockaway hunt club

rolling greenis excluded as is  plainfield and prairie dunes  -as they held us women's and / or  us senior opens

[John Moore II]

Gerry-great list. Only problem with most of the clubs on there is that their memberships are too restictive to host a major anymore. Not to mention, they are also ultra-private and have absolutely NO desire to host a major, or any USGA event.
--I would like to see a USGA event held at Raleigh CC. I think it could easily host something like the Sr Am, or most of the Women's Am events. All of our 'classic' clubs in Pinehurst have hosted a USGA event. And I know Charlotte CC has held USGA events, I want to say it is scheduled to host another. Cape Fear CC in Wilmington might be a fair course to host a USGA event as well. Other than that, I can't think of a NC course that would be able to host a USGA event.

[Tim Gavrich]

Mike and Tim

I regard  New Haven Country club very highly.  To satisfy logisitcal  concerns
Yale and  NHCC  would be a stellar combo for an  Am or Mid Am.   Any thoughts   on that pair ?

Mark--

I've never played NHCC, unfortunately, as I've heard it's a very good golf course (courtesy of Willie Park, Jr., I believe).  That'd be an awesome pair for an Am/Mid Am, given what I'm told about New Haven.

How's about a CC of Fairfield/Stanwich combo?  What was the secondary course when Stanwich had the Mid Am a couple years ago (assuming the Mid Am uses two courses for stroke play)?

[Ed Oden]

J. Kenneth Moore:

Your statement about the private clubs' lack of desire may have some merit in the case of the US Open, where the headaches are arguably not worth the hassle.  But I'm not sure the same is true with respect to other USGA events where the burden on the host club is not so great.  In particular, it is my understanding that the US Am is likely the most coveted event among the top tier private clubs since it brings most of the prestige without as much baggage.  FYI, Charlotte CC will hold the Women's Am in 2010.

Ed

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

I think there are an inordinate number of courses that could host the events you list.

I don't think it's the course that's the impediment.

I think the membership is the most significant impediment with logistics and infrastructure being two others.

Just in my immediate area, The Knoll, Essex County, Hackensack, Somerset Hills and Mountain Ridge could host them.   Hollywood, Hidden Creek and many others would also qualify.

I'm sure the Philly and Long Island have an abundance of qualifying courses as well.

Length, however, is almost an unfortunate requirement since Junior golfers are now driving the ball farther than Nicklaus did in his prime.

[Gerry B]

the majors are a major headache for may of the old gems - and lately if a club hosts the open they also hold the amateur as part of the deal -ie oakmont - who are also holding the us women's open / winged foot / pinehurst / olympic club / merion.  ditto for the pga - ryder cup - ie oakland hills / valhalla - in this case a pga run course / oak hill / kiawah  and i believe medinah will also hold the ryder cup at some point. it also appears that the senior pga / senior u sopen and women's us opens seem to come into play as well when it comers to the politics.

if a club has 2 or more courses and or good public transportation - makes the logistics easier - oakland hills / medinah / olympia fields / merion / olympic / oakmont  / torrey pines / bethpage  / oakmont as  oakmont east is next door / pinehurst / winged foot / baltusrol - who were awarded the last pga there due to logistics problem at the country club after the ryder cup.

some of the old gems are quite happy to host the walker cup / curtis cup type of events -as the galleries are small and as it is match play  - length is not a factor - ie chicago golf club -which was fabulous / quaker ridge / merion / ngla in 2013 / fox chapel / 5 farms east / ganton / royal county down / pine valley / sea island, etc.

the us women's open has been held on some great tracks in recent times - interlachen / prairie dunes / pine needles  / cherry hills / indianwood and even the seniors have held some of their recent majors at some great old courses as well - ridgewood / salem / saucon valley / aronomink / inverness / 5 farms east. crowds  / corporate tents and media are on a much smaller scale thus making it less of a burden on the member ship and local communities.

in determining the biggest obstacle of  logistics vs the membership - obviously without the approval of the membership logistics are a moot point. many of the old classics have a well heeled membership who quite frankly could care less if they ever held a tournament. they value their privacy and in the northern cities have a limited golf season as it is.

case in point  - my home course in toronto would be a great test  / venue for the canadian open which used to be referred to as the 5th major prior to the players championship taking over the title. noted golf writer lorne rubenstein wrote an article in the globe and mail on this very subject a few weeks ago when the canadian open was held at glen abbey.

 Here are the major obstacles :

-all male membership (however women have limited playing access as guests and full dining privileges unlike many of the all male clubs)

-the tournament is now the week after the british open - therefore many of the top players would pass regardless of how good the course is

- logistics - no parking and public transportation is not great

- the neighbours who reside adjacent to the club in multi million dollar homes would most certainly object.

even if the club admitted female members - (which for the record i have no problem with - and in fact there is a women's golf club in toronto that was designed by stanley thompson  - The Toronto Ladies Club - where the male spouse is the associate member) the disruption and potential damage to the course is not worth the hassle regardless of how much money the club stands to make. most of the members feel the same way. that being said, I would have no problem if we hosted the canadian amateur or the world jr amateur, etc., if the gender issue was resolved.

[Jim Nugent]

Yale had a couple of U.S. Juniors. 

[mike_beene]

"I'm a ferry guy" The Dr Phil show will be calling in the morning.

[Lester George]

I would like to see the pros tackle Seminole in the wind with very fast greens.

Lester