Forget the pros' bellyaching. Oakland Hills is EASIER than Torrey

[Jim Nugent]

The most common refrain from the PGA Championship is how hard/unfair Oakland Hills is.  The rough is too thick and high.  Fairways too narrow.  Greens too tough.  The pro's have never played a course as hard as Oakland Hills.

Many also compare OH unfavorably with Torrey Pines.  "The USGA got it right with Torrey.  Why did the PGA screw up so badly?"

I think the players and critics may be wrong.  The stats suggest Torrey played as hard as Oakland Hills.  In some ways, TP played tougher. 

Here are the numbers for each course, through the first two rounds.  Same number of golfers – 156 -- started the 1st round.  Kenny Perry dropped out, so OH ended up with one less player. 

         Torrey Pines   Oakland Hills

Ave Score       75.3              74.85
Eagles                 9                    11   
Birdies             654                  604
Pars               3228                3143
Bogeys          1428                1578
D. Bogeys        229                 236
Others                38                    26
Leader              140                139
Cut                    149                 148

Average score is nearly a half stroke less at Oakland Hills.  Torrey has a slight lead in birdies, pars and bogeys.  But there may be a simple reason for that: Torrey has 3 par 5 holes, while OH only has 2.  Still, with one less par 5, OH has more eagles through the first two rounds. 

(That extra par 5 also pushes up TP's average score, but not by a half stroke.  e.g. the 18th at OH is averaging nearly 4.7 strokes; #18 at TP averaged only about 0.1 higher.)

So scoring is higher at Torrey.  Fewer eagles there.  About the same # of pars, birdies and bogeys.  Yet Torrey was lauded and Oakland Hills panned. 

Why?  Why is the perception so different, when the courses statistically are playing almost identically, and in one key way – scoring – OH is easier?  Expectations?  No Tiger?  Something else? 

Is the architecture partly responsible?  Most consider OH a much better course than TP.  Could there be a feeling that the setup made OH worse, but TP better, and that is why so many players/writers/posters are so upset? 

I haven't seen a shot of the PGA, so I'm basing this all on the data.  Am I missing a key element?

I'll update these figures when the PGA ends.  Final numbers of birds, pars, etc. may differ a bit, since 73 players made the cut at the PGA, and 79 made the cut at the U.S. Open.   

[Brad Klein]

Might be missing one thing: Torrey Pines played as par-71 and Oakland Hills plays at par-70. So Oakland Hills is obviously playing harder in the most elemental number of all -- score in relation to par.

Oakland Hills is playing 4.85 shots over par per round; Torrey Pines was 4.3. Oakland Hills is playing half a shot harder per player per round.

[Jim Nugent]

Brad, I did point that up in my post, and also addressed it.  What do you think of what I said there? 

[John Burzynski]

This might be the most boring tournament of the majors this year, at least so far.

Maybe it is the Tiger factor, I am not sure, but there doesn't seem to be any excitement among the players...with the exception of Sergio begging for every other shot to do something.  I know that the 2nd round is early, but it seems to me that this is all a drudgery for the players, like they can't wait to leave, at least their body language tells me so.

I would like to see a few players below par, even -7 or -8 for a whole tournament isn't bad, is it?  It is fun to see eagle and birdie opportunities, like Harrington's on 17 at the British Open (even if that was a hole set up to be extra tough).   

There just has to be a balance somewhere between scoring, excitement and a true test for golfers.  This business of protecting par has to go.

[Brad Klein]

Jim,

if you did point it out I still don't see it addressed as an issue of overall par; you only refer to TP having one extra par-5. And by your own data, I see Oakland Hills with fewer birdies, more bogeys, more double bogeys. So overall I disagree with you.

Oakland Hills is inherently a much better golf course, mainly because the greens complexes are fascinating and the ground contours of many fairways (1, 2, 4, 10-11, 15, 18) are really convoluted and sometimes brilliant. But the life of those fairways has been straight-jacketed and we're seeing very little ground effect golf on long shots; only on the short ones.

Try it this way with your own data (rough quick calculations on just one cup of Starbucks grande bold):

                                 TP                 OH
holes scored:       5,586              5,598
eagle %                      0.2                  0.2
birdie %                    11.7                10.8
par %                        57.8                56.1
bogey %                   25.6                28.2
d. bogey %                 4.1                  4.2
others %                    0.7                  0.5

OH has fewer birdies and pars, more bogies and double bogies.

As usual, Lorne Rubenstein, with some help from Jeff Mingay, nails it in this morning's Toronto Globe & Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080808.wspt-rube-col-08/EmailBNStory/GlobeSportsGolf/

[Phil McDade]

Jim:

Maybe it has to do with expectations. Players know the US Open is going to be a grind-fest, and know that the Open Championship is one that often depends on the vagaries of the weather (and know that the R&A is less vigilent about protecting par than the USGA).

You hear a lot of complaining about Augusta these days because some players think the Masters committee has adopted a USGA mindset. With any kind of mildly difficult weather, Augusta has become something like a US Open. My sense is that the pros want something in a PGA set-up along what John B. suggested -- more of a challenge than, say, Valhalla, but not something where over-par wins the tourney, as may happen at Oakland Hills. The last 10 PGAs have had an average winning score of -10.5, so maybe Oakland Hills' very stiff test runs counter to what players expect in the last major.

Average winning score (under par), four majors, last 10 years:

Masters: -8.8
US Open: -2.3
British Open: -8.2
PGA: -10.5

The US Open might need an asterisk, as it included Tiger's -12 at Pebble when he as 15 strokes clear of the field. True, Tiger does that a lot, but that US Open is the largest scoring anomaly (winning score compared to field) in any major in the last 10 years.

The Masters is clearly trending higher, with -4.7 the average winning score in the past three years, a time of significant change in the course.

Both the PGA and British Open have some wide swings in winning scores, the PGA less so than the British Open.

[Jim Nugent]

Brad, the difference in par between both courses is hole number 18.  The USGA kept 18 at TP as a par 5.  Average score the first two rounds there was 4.78.  The PGA turned 18 at OH into a par 4.  Average score there is 4.67.  Virtually the same scores.  But one is a par 4, the other a par 5.   

Suppose the USGA made #18 at TP a 515-or-so yard par 4, as it was originally reported they would do.  Average score would have come down a little.  But numbers of birdies and pars would have plunged.  Number of bogeys would have soared.   This one decision accounts for the slight advantage in birdies, pars and bogeys at TP.  Even with it, the two courses are real, real close.  Yet people loved the TP setup and hate OH's. 

Phil, I think you are right about expectations.   At the 1997 PGA, Love won at WFW with a score of 269.  At the 2006 Open, Ogilvy won with 285.  We expect the Open be tough, the PGA not so.   

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

We can chat about this stat and this stat but the element that gives Torrey the edge is that it had Tiger and Rocco in a classic duel - the Goliath versus David story.

You also have the fact that Tiger was playing in some sort of injury -- unbeknowst to many on the actual seriousness of it.

The issue w Oakland Hills / South is that it is miles beyond Torrey in terms of the actual quality architecture it provides. The issue is that the PGA has turned the course more into a walking man's conservative to the max set-up. That's a zzzzzzz to me and countless others.

What would happen if the fairways were widened 7-8 yards more and the rough grown only to a few inches rather than the sheer density one sees through the first two rounds?

Let me point out how successful the PGA was in preparing WF/W for the '97 PGA event. The course allowed superior play to excel and Davis Love's four-round total has to rank among the 4-5 best of all-time given the nature of brutal the West can be.

Frankly, I am getting tired of this penchant from the people who set-up courses for the majors to believe that maximum difficulty is the only way to go. I can't fathom what Kerry Haigh and company have done this week given their superior track record from years past.

OH/S is a fantastic layout that did not need to be HELPED by anyone because increased awareness of its inherent design greatness in tandem with a more entertaining golf show would be a huge benefit to all involved.

[Garland Bayley]

I guess those pros that loved TP but dislike OH would probably love playing on the plains of the Dakotas. Probably there should be a few tournaments established there each year to give the whiners some place to play and be happy.

[Garland Bayley]

I have to take exception to your empasis of EASIER in the subject. Torry Pines was 250 yards longer and was played at sea level. The par was one more, as one would expect an extra shot would be necessary to cover 250 yards. When compared one everything but shear length, I think most everyone would agree that Oakland Hills Is HARDER than Torrey.

[Mike Hendren]

Sure the set-up is brutal.  But in the famous words of Stork of the Deltla house:  "What the hell we supposed to do, your morons?"

[Jeff_Mingay]

The current version of OH-South is extremely monotonous.

EVERY hole features an extremely narrow fairway, bordered by thick grass, pinched by hazards left and right at prescribed distances from the tees. The entrance to EVERY green is pinched by hazards left and right as well. It's nearly the same thing, hole after hole after hole.

The course could be so much more, if were simply opened up, even just a bit. The routing is good. There are a number of remarkable holes. And, needless to say, the greens are varied and extremely interesting. The problem is, so many interesting angles and remarkable contour are currently "out of play", covered by long grass and trees.

The skeleton of the course -- the routing, the greens, and contour throughout the property in general -- is much, much more interesting than is easily evident this week. To start, OH-South needs more short grass.

[John Moore II]

Its certainly easier today than it has been. Just look at all the players in red figures today. Villegas is -5 so far, and two players -4 today.

[Jay Flemma]

There's only one problem with your theory...torrey is a par 71 and OHCC is playing par 70.

So Oakland Hills is 4.85 over par...torrey was 4.3 so the reverse is true torrey is a half shot easier.

They watered the course and the rain will help more.  We will get true PGA conditions when we resume.

Jeff's comment are 100 times right...and he was quoted by Lorne R. in this article:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080808.wspt-rube-col-08/BNStory/GlobeSportsGolf

I'm here on site and I played torrey...OHCC is much...MUCH harder.  the rough is tough...not as bac as Winged Foot, but tough.

[Brad Klein]

Jay,

see the thread (above).

[CHrisB]

When the pros say that OH is set up too hard, they are saying that the set up does not allow for low scores no matter how good they play.

So scoring average is meaningless to challenge what they're saying. Look at the number of par-or-better rounds.

U.S. Open Rounds 1 and 2 (30 par-or-better rounds):
Scores at -5 -- 1
Scores at -4 -- 1
Scores at -3 -- 4
Scores at -2 -- 7
Scores at -1 -- 17

PGA Championship Rounds 1 and 2 (13 par-or-better rounds):
Scores at -5 -- 0
Scores at -4 -- 0
Scores at -3 -- 2
Scores at -2 -- 3
Scores at -1 -- 8

And say what you want about the 18th hole at Torrey being a par 5 and the 18th a Oakland Hills being a par 4, but the bottom line is that a 500-yard par-4 with a 4.7 scoring average is a harder hole than a 500-yard par 5 with a 4.7 scoring average. Par does mean something.

If you disagree with that, then I guess you'd also say that the 238-yard par-3 17th at Oakland Hills must be an easier hole than the 387-yard par-4 6th. After all, the 17th has a 3.4 stroke average, which is 0.6 lower than the 6th at 4.0.

[Jim Nugent]

Chris, calling number 18 a par 4 instead of a par 5 has nothing to do with rough, or width of fairways.  It is an accounting device, that helps keep track of scoring.  When the USGA does course ratings, to determine how hard a course is, it does not consider that accounting device.  It tries to estimate what actual scores will be, not what par says. 

Through two rounds, Oakland Hills and Torrey Pines got almost the exact same % of birdies, pars, eagles, bogeys and doubles.  Without the accounting device, which has little or nothing to do with course setup (and in any case is only one hole), the tiny difference would favor OH. 

It might anyway, after the 3rd round ends.   We already have a 65 (Romero, who made 7 birdies).  May be in line for at least one 66, several 67's, and a number of other scores in the 60's.  And the round is only half way through. 

My main question was, why do so many pan OH and praise TP, when the number of birdies, pars, eagles, and bogeys are so similar?  My sense is that it's a reflection of the basic architecture: the setups made OH worse, but TP better, even though scoring is so close.  Tiger may have had something to do with it, too, along with expectations. 



 





 

[JSlonis]

No matter how difficult or easy Oakliand Hills is now playing...after watching JB Holmes TWITCH & FLIT his way to the end of the 3rd round, the final round this afternoon is going to be brutal to watch on TV.

I usually don't root against anybody, but if he happened to blow up at the start of the 4th round, maybe we'd all be spared the endless coverage of him trying to hit every shot.  It's far worse than Garcia during his regripping phase.

[Daryl David]

No matter how difficult or easy Oakliand Hills is now playing...after watching JB Holmes TWITCH & FLIT his way to the end of the 3rd round, the final round this afternoon is going to be brutal to watch on TV.

I usually don't root against anybody, but if he happened to blow up at the start of the 4th round, maybe we'd all be spared the endless coverage of him trying to hit every shot.  It's far worse than Garcia during his regripping phase.

My thoughts exactly.  It cemented my decision not to watch live.  I will DVR and speed thru the round so I can cut out his routine.  He is brutal.  I have admiration for those that are paired with him.  I am not sure how they can keep their mouths shut and not dress him down.

[JSlonis]

Daryl,

DVR is a great idea.  This PGA is a double whammy, no Tiger and way too much JB.  I can't imagine having to play in the same group.  I guess I'd bring my ipod or a good book.   

[Will MacEwen]

No matter how difficult or easy Oakliand Hills is now playing...after watching JB Holmes TWITCH & FLIT his way to the end of the 3rd round, the final round this afternoon is going to be brutal to watch on TV.

I usually don't root against anybody, but if he happened to blow up at the start of the 4th round, maybe we'd all be spared the endless coverage of him trying to hit every shot.  It's far worse than Garcia during his regripping phase.

My thoughts exactly.  It cemented my decision not to watch live.  I will DVR and speed thru the round so I can cut out his routine.  He is brutal.  I have admiration for those that are paired with him.  I am not sure how they can keep their mouths shut and not dress him down.

I admire the patience of those who play with him, but I might admire them more if they pulled out a sand wedge and maimed him. 

Club professionals are on the front lines in the battle against slow play.  The showcase event of the PGA would do well to set an example (penalty, not the previously advocated assault) with Holmes.

[Daryl David]

I will be surprised with all the pressure to finish today that the officials don't attempt to move him along.  I almost hope they fall behind a hole so he gets on the clock.  

What terrifies me are all the young talented players that are watching that will immediately begin to back off putts 3 times before hitting because JB does.  Then start having their caddie stand behind them LPGA style and line up the putts.  Nightmare.

[Dean Stokes]

The current version of OH-South is extremely monotonous.

EVERY hole features an extremely narrow fairway, bordered by thick grass, pinched by hazards left and right at prescribed distances from the tees. The entrance to EVERY green is pinched by hazards left and right as well. It's nearly the same thing, hole after hole after hole.

The course could be so much more, if were simply opened up, even just a bit. The routing is good. There are a number of remarkable holes. And, needless to say, the greens are varied and extremely interesting. The problem is, so many interesting angles and remarkable contour are currently "out of play", covered by long grass and trees.

The skeleton of the course -- the routing, the greens, and contour throughout the property in general -- is much, much more interesting than is easily evident this week. To start, OH-South needs more short grass.

Ditto.

[Jim Nugent]

I will be surprised with all the pressure to finish today that the officials don't attempt to move him along.  I almost hope they fall behind a hole so he gets on the clock.  

They're playing threesomes the last round.  Holmes, Curtis and Henrik.  If they impose a penalty for slow play, don't they have to penalize the entire group?  This could really get bizarre, if someone leapfrogs all three leaders because Holmes plays slow. 

[Jay Flemma]

 


My main question was, why do so many pan OH and praise TP, when the number of birdies, pars, eagles, and bogeys are so similar?   

Because under neath the cover of rough at OHCC are fairway contours that would make OHCC the Pinehurst of the MW.  Torrey doesn't have as much character.  A lot of OHCC is diminished by the setup.  At torrey, it's more straightforward, and accordingly not as interesting.  Al;so, they set up torrey to be fair.  Popping the rough gave the monster brass knuckles and that's unnecessary on such a tough golf course.